Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[pc2000]

I have been hoping to see updates to the Matrix View, to at least on par with Project 5. Ability to record directly into Matrix cells will sway me to upgrade. But so far there doesn't seem to be anyone interested except me.

There are users who are interested in Matrix, Step sequencer and other Midi-Composition workflow enhancements, but I don't think they stayed waiting.

I have moved from Sonar about two years ago. So yes maybe you are the only one who still have a hope about it

I've been interested in seeing these and other related improvements as well, particularly for the step sequencer and PRV. The problem is, Cakewalk created the "Features and Ideas" forum so that they can shove everybody's suggestions under the rug and keep them off the main forum. It's too bad, because that forum is full of great suggestions for improving Sonar, but it seems that Cakewalk doesn't even look at it or, if they are, they're just ignoring the suggestions.

There are quite a few- l o n g.... t i m e users of Sonar that go back years in the forums. These individuals are like respected elders that CW always seem to let dictate what features become relevant. It's been many request for the most basic of midi features (overdub midi recording) that every modern Daw features except Sonar. CW seems to pride themselves on keeping Sonar in the dark ages when it comes to this feature. Many of these before-mentioned members could care less about midi overdub recording, because they been using Sonar sense the days of dinosaurs and are quite content with that aspect of the program.

Because these members show no interest or say they don't care about this feature, CW doesn't either. Sonar is like a classic vehicle- seniors were driving in the 90ies to me. They just keep throwing features on top of an old classic with the same legacy feature that will never get updated. This is why I'll never update to any new versions of Sonar. I still have X3 and don't bother to use it period.

[flugel45]

There are quite a few- l o n g.... t i m e users of Sonar that go back years in the forums. These individuals are like respected elders that CW always seem to let dictate what features become relevant. It's been many request for the most basic of midi features (overdub midi recording) that every modern Daw features except Sonar. CW seems to pride themselves on keeping Sonar in the dark ages when it comes to this feature. Many of these before-mentioned members could care less about midi overdub recording, because they been using Sonar sense the days of dinosaurs and are quite content with that aspect of the program.

Because these members show no interest or say they don't care about this feature, CW doesn't either. Sonar is like a classic vehicle- seniors were driving in the 90ies to me. They just keep throwing features on top of an old classic with the same legacy feature that will never get updated. This is why I'll never update to any new versions of Sonar. I still have X3 and don't bother to use it period.

Sorry, how did you arrive at this "theory"? Bowing to the wants of the "elders" in a user forum would be suicide for any company, and considering that they've had 3 different owners in the past 6-7 years, the suggestion that all of these owners would somehow fall sway to these" elders' influence" and throw their own business sense out the window -- well, it's the kind of conspiracy theory you see on the internet.

Also, shortly after Gibson came into the picture, a detailed survey was sent to all registered Sonar users, asking for their (anonymous) input on features they use or don't use, want to see, etc. I don't sit in on their management meetings, but if I had to guess, the survey responses have a lot to do with the features they've put in Sonar since.

[Mystic]

There are quite a few- l o n g.... t i m e users of Sonar that go back years in the forums. These individuals are like respected elders that CW always seem to let dictate what features become relevant. It's been many request for the most basic of midi features (overdub midi recording) that every modern Daw features except Sonar. CW seems to pride themselves on keeping Sonar in the dark ages when it comes to this feature. Many of these before-mentioned members could care less about midi overdub recording, because they been using Sonar sense the days of dinosaurs and are quite content with that aspect of the program.

Because these members show no interest or say they don't care about this feature, CW doesn't either. Sonar is like a classic vehicle- seniors were driving in the 90ies to me. They just keep throwing features on top of an old classic with the same legacy feature that will never get updated. This is why I'll never update to any new versions of Sonar. I still have X3 and don't bother to use it period.

Okay, this made me laugh really hard, so thanks for that. If anything, Cakewalk does what Cakewalk wants to do. This isn't a bad thing because too much outside input from users can be a very very bad thing (I've been running into this issue with a game I've been working with and it's an absolute mess). A good example that they don't just listen to the "elders" is that we've been asking for a notation update for what, a decade? It's not come. Now one could say that by ignoring the pleas, they don't care about their user base, but the more I thought about it the more I came to the realization that there is a high possibility they've not worked on it because they know they can't compare to the notation competition out there (finale/sibelius) so why work on something like that when there are two much better options that they wouldn't be able to match and it would cost a boatload of money?

I personally don't want overdub midi. I prefer the way they have it now. That said, I think they should add the option for overdubbing and that is one thing that could be added to a massive retake on midi editing if they do it. Thing is, it's not going to be an overnight thing. For all we know, they are working on it now and just not announced because they don't know how long it will take. Redesigning a whole section of the program like that would be an immense undertaking and I'm sure they would get some resistance from quite a few users until they understand fully the changes being made. Better to wait till it's finished before announcing so they can show in detail what is being done.

[pc2000]

There are quite a few- l o n g.... t i m e users of Sonar that go back years in the forums. These individuals are like respected elders that CW always seem to let dictate what features become relevant. It's been many request for the most basic of midi features (overdub midi recording) that every modern Daw features except Sonar. CW seems to pride themselves on keeping Sonar in the dark ages when it comes to this feature. Many of these before-mentioned members could care less about midi overdub recording, because they been using Sonar sense the days of dinosaurs and are quite content with that aspect of the program.

Because these members show no interest or say they don't care about this feature, CW doesn't either. Sonar is like a classic vehicle- seniors were driving in the 90ies to me. They just keep throwing features on top of an old classic with the same legacy feature that will never get updated. This is why I'll never update to any new versions of Sonar. I still have X3 and don't bother to use it period.

Sorry, how did you arrive at this "theory"? Bowing to the wants of the "elders" in a user forum would be suicide for any company, and considering that they've had 3 different owners in the past 6-7 years, the suggestion that all of these owners would somehow fall sway to these" elders' influence" and throw their own business sense out the window -- well, it's the kind of conspiracy theory you see on the internet.

Also, shortly after Gibson came into the picture, a detailed survey was sent to all registered Sonar users, asking for their (anonymous) input on features they use or don't use, want to see, etc. I don't sit in on their management meetings, but if I had to guess, the survey responses have a lot to do with the features they've put in Sonar since.

Yes... it seems like a rather silly theory I'll admit. Let me offer this perspective... I became a member in the CW forums back in 2007. I as well as others have consistently asked for this feature. I've been requesting this every since 2010. Trust...I'm not a lone wolf on this request. There are quite a few threads by different members at CW- including discussions here at KVR. Every time the request comes up there are quite a few people that chime in that they don't care for the feature. This may be due to them being long time Sonar users that probably never or rarely used other Daws, so they're locked into the Sonar midi paradigm. There appears to be (IMO) an elite selection of respected long time users-whose opinions seem to influence some of CW decisions on development. This is merely my personal perspective and not something I'm stating as any fact.

The most useful aspect of midi overdub recording is for drum pattern recording. Having each drum part as a separate midi clip isn't too practical, unless you plan to bounce them to audio. Some people are simply horrible at recording drums in real-time and prefer to have separate midi clips of each part so they can pick the best parts or keep recording until they finally nail it. Then there's people like myself that don't have that issue with real-time recording. Think of recording with an hardware drum machine. When you record patterns-it's a single performance not separate sequences of each drum sound. It's then easy to copy or loop ( Groove clip) the single midi clip. Having to bounce midi clips constantly in Sonar is a real pita- because it's extra work that don't have to be done in other DAWs.

The midi take record feature is more relevant for keyboard performances or single percussion takes...etc.

As far as Gibson and surveys go... CW has done a number of those over the years before Gibson's ownership. I participated in them all. Did Gibson get rid of the bakers and staff that were on deck before the acquisition? I doubt the process has really changed. We don't get to know what the most popular feature request are. You only get a sense of what users want by reading the boards regularly. The process has never been transparent or inclusive. Has CW ever presented the most popular request and took a vote on their inclusion in a particular release? Some of these features that make it doesn't seem to be highly requested from users. They're throwing in the kitchen sink and everything else-but this very basic feature every Daw has. I see a lot of complaints about them not fixing or improving on features already in place more than anything. Is midi not a core feature that should be as robust as they can make it? Why do they continue to ignore it?

Please name any relevant DAW that doesn't have midi overdub as an core option, then lets surmise why Sonar is the only Daw that doesn't in 2016.

Like I said, if the elders don't see it remotely relevant- it won't be considered! Remember when Sonar7 was released and the elders hated the GUI... CW hurried up and scrapped it. They didn't do that because of any outcry from the general public, It was the long time users crying that did it. When you consider this angle- it becomes plausible that CW listens to a specific demographic of Sonar user more so.

Don't take any of this seriously.... For entertainment only!

[Kraznet]

I concur on the midi overdub recording.I was doing it on Cubase Atari in the 90s. Having a separate clip generated every time doesn't suit me personally. I think I even contacted support about it but nothing happened consequently I never upgraded from X3 except for a one month subscription to test it out.

[flugel45]

Please name any relevant DAW that doesn't have midi overdub as an core option, then lets surmise why Sonar is the only Daw that doesn't in 2016.

Like I said, if the elders don't see it remotely relevant- it won't be considered! Remember when Sonar7 was released and the elders hated the GUI... CW hurried up and scrapped it. They didn't do that because of any outcry from the general public, It was the long time users crying that did it. When you consider this angle- it becomes plausible that CW listens to a specific demographic of Sonar user more so.

Don't take any of this seriously.... For entertainment only!

Fair enough on your first point. (I don't work that way, so wouldn't know).

But again, you say "wink-wink, yes, it's silly" on the "forum elders" having these special powers, then proceed to argue why you think it's true.

I'm more inclined to believe the function hasn't been added either because:

- More users indicated they either didn't want it or were indifferent about it than those who do want it. Or --

- It can't be added without a major rewrite of legacy code, which they're not prepared to undertake financially.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I know either of the above to be true. Just throwing them out there as more plausible than your "elders made it happen" theory.

[dredd i knight]

From what I remember, a LOT of people were chiming in about improved score features back in the day (2006 or so onwards).
As for the "elders" their influence and lynch mob mentality were what drove me away from Cakewalk... That and the bugs
The oft repeated user error accusation was unleashed, plus personal digs when I lamented at the way Cakewalk let features slide, and didn't fix long standing bugs... I decided that since Live wasn't acting up in the same ways Sonar was, f%u£ it I'll use what works and quit pulling out my hair in frustration.

But broadly there is at the Cakewalk forum, (or rather was, because I don't frequent those forums anymore), a bit of a gang mentality that I found to be highly defensive, and sadly non receptive to new ideas, or criticism of the product.

They are a company with great ideas, but lack conviction when it comes to improving or building on those initial ideas. The Matrix view, RXP, Cyclone, Beatscape are all great examples of this. I find it saddening because I really like Sonar, but the hoops I used to have to jump through tweaking this or that on my pc to get it to work (only intermittently), were eventually too much for me to handle.

[anxiousmofo]

I have been hoping to see updates to the Matrix View, to at least on par with Project 5. Ability to record directly into Matrix cells will sway me to upgrade. But so far there doesn't seem to be anyone interested except me.

I have an existing Features & Ideas request about this. If you haven't, please upvote it and/or chime in.

Thanks!

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Record-into-M ... 77349.aspx

[LawrenceF]

I would not know where to start on scripting but hope others would.
Years ago I did use some CAL midi effects. I do like how Cubase
does the Logical Editor, Transformer, Input Transformer
Midi Menu Functions and MFX and propriety midi FX. All bases are
covered.

Thanks. I was mostly just curious.

Generally speaking, I find it a little bizarre that so many daws don't allow scripting when it's clearly the case that it relieves developer headaches to some degree as relates to features, and gives users more freedom. Microsoft, Corel, Apple, and many other media companies discovered that long, long ago, but for some odd reason, audio workstations mostly just don't do it or never even consider doing it.

That Cakewalk did it with CAL (I suppose) shows some forward thinking... even though using what looks like a proprietary language might not have been the best approach.

P.S. I've been looking at JS scripting in T7 and it looks pretty good so far, although I don't know how extensive it is yet... or how far the underlying API goes since it seems they haven't published it or documented it fully...

[poonna]

I have been hoping to see updates to the Matrix View, to at least on par with Project 5. Ability to record directly into Matrix cells will sway me to upgrade. But so far there doesn't seem to be anyone interested except me.

I have an existing Features & Ideas request about this. If you haven't, please upvote it and/or chime in.

Thanks!

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Record-into-M ... 77349.aspx

Done!

Hopefully it won't go unnoticed by Cakewalk.

[jinotsuh]

From what I remember, a LOT of people were chiming in about improved score features back in the day (2006 or so onwards).
As for the "elders" their influence and lynch mob mentality were what drove me away from Cakewalk... That and the bugs
The oft repeated user error accusation was unleashed, plus personal digs when I lamented at the way Cakewalk let features slide, and didn't fix long standing bugs... I decided that since Live wasn't acting up in the same ways Sonar was, f%u£ it I'll use what works and quit pulling out my hair in frustration.

But broadly there is at the Cakewalk forum, (or rather was, because I don't frequent those forums anymore), a bit of a gang mentality that I found to be highly defensive, and sadly non receptive to new ideas, or criticism of the product.

They are a company with great ideas, but lack conviction when it comes to improving or building on those initial ideas. The Matrix view, RXP, Cyclone, Beatscape are all great examples of this. I find it saddening because I really like Sonar, but the hoops I used to have to jump through tweaking this or that on my pc to get it to work (only intermittently), were eventually too much for me to handle.

You'll be glad to know that things haven't changed then
especially the 'gang mentality' and 'highly defensive, and sadly non receptive to new ideas, or criticism of the product' the amount of people who have been silenced in recent times for daring to speak out was a little concerning to me, even when the ones being 'silenced' were speaking the truth, I guess it was just a little hard for the brethren to swallow, the mighty 'ban stick' is a powerful thing, and it is being wielded liberally there now days. I know the fanbois will say it's not true, but I visit there daily and I have seen it in action, it's quite pathetic at times, and the way they come down on people who don't speak highly enough of Cakewalk and or Sonar, it can be like a pack of ravenous wolves, there would still be some evidence there today, but most of it is cleared up and hidden after they let the fanbois have their kill. I shit you not, I have seen it time and time again. The words REAPER and Studio One seem to strike some kind of fear in their hearts, they don't like hearing about them, quite a few refer to REAPER as the 'R' word lol Generally they seem to be an insecure bunch for the most part.

The user error accusation has evolved a little, now days it's the unholy trinity of
1. 3rd party plugin
2. User error
3. Your computer is crap

because we all know it can't be Sonars fault

I don't agree with the 'elders' theory, number one purely because of all the 'noob' features that have been being added to Sonar last year and especially the first part of this year, and things that NO ONE has asked for, things like Style Dials, LandR, add track button (that was actually promoted as a major feature, it's own sticky and all) there is more, they escape me now, but just look at the release notes, and some of the comments at the forums about the prevalence of 'noob' features this year. One long time well respected user actually coined the term of 'Nooburyport' for the Newburyport release which I found quite amusing if not a little surprising coming from them. I don't really think Cakewalk listen to anyone in general when it all boils down, they will just do what they want in the end, just like when they sent out that survey about whether people would like a subscription model, it was an overwhelming NO, and what did we get? a SUNSCRIPTION Model, oh that;s right, it's a membership lol, they also hate that when people call it a SUBSCRIPTION lol, and that's exactly what it is, it's just semantics.

The grumblings are growing among the faithful, and I have seen quite a few long timers bow out due to certain things like the subscription model, attitude of the forum members and staff, not happy with the direction being taken, the lack of attention to major long time bugs, and dislike for the general attitude found there these days etc etc. I feel Cakewalk is slowly going down, the archaic base that Sonar is built on is beginning to crumble under the pressure of all the new bells and whistles they keep bolting on, Cakewalk themselves have practically admitted it by saying something like "we are taking the knife to the core of Sonar to remove all the old inefficient code" something along those lines, but is it to late?, the bugs keep mounting, new ones added monthly, issues galore (have a read of the forums) and they are so adamant that you put a 'SOLVED' in your post title if you get it worked out or a work around is found, even so much so as the powers that be will do it for you lol, sometimes even when a satisfactory solution has not been found by the OP lol, I mean it's so obvious that they are covering stuff up, I have seen it and read it with my own eye's, no one can ever tell me it isn't true or happening, the way they jump on the use of the word SUBSCRIPTION, and many other things, it's like they are running scared. Now Gibson is in trouble lol.

I am glad I got out mid last year, but it is still very entertaining watching the goings on in the forums, just the other day one of the cakewalk staff told a user that he would be better off using Drumagog than cakewalks own Drum Replacer, which was a major draw, a big cannon upon release, quite amusing. (search will find the post, oh that's right, Cakewalks forums search feature is crapped out lol) and that Anderton is a hoot, he must think everybody is stupid.

Yep, I feel that things may just be terminal over there at Cakewalk , only time will tell.

[flugel45]

.... The words REAPER and Studio One seem to strike some kind of fear in their hearts, they don't like hearing about them, quite a few refer to REAPER as the 'R' word lol Generally they seem to be an insecure bunch for the most part....

Studio One and Reaper actually come up quite frequently in the software sub-forum. It's the Sonar main forum where they get touchy about it -- and in fairness, I think anyone singing the praises of a DAW at a rival DAW's forum is going to be told to take it elsewhere. It's just bad form.

As for the rest of it, I'm getting the subtle impression that Sonar and their forum just wasn't for you.

[Mystic]

And then there are the Cakewalk Haters... the ones who don't use Sonar because maybe they had a previous bad experience or didn't like it back in the day and stopped using it or they were "bullied" on the forum (because we all know that doesn't happen on any of the other forums ) and simply jump on the chance to trash the company whenever the topic comes up; most of the time being completely unjustified.

If nothing else, Cakewalk has come a long way in the past 3 years. To say it's falling apart is just ignorant because they have a system that works for both them and the users. Not every update is going to be "OMGTHISISGREAT" updates but the amount of bugs that have been fixed and features put in have been incredible and far beyond what any other DAW is doing. Go ask the people who use Cubase extensively on PC how they've been doing lately in 8.5. You're going to get a mostly negative reaction from them. How about ProTools... yah... Studio One? Still struggling with midi. Reaper? Everyone circlejerks over it but it is not without it's own issues. Lots of things not supported, some stability issues, has a long way to go to compete with the big ones. Getting there but not there yet. The thing it has going for it is the price.

That said, many of us Cakewalk users also use other DAWs. The problem some people run into is that age old issue of "well 5 people got defensive about it so they all must be that way" mentality.

[EnGee]

That said, many of us Cakewalk users also use other DAWs.

Why?

[flugel45]

That said, many of us Cakewalk users also use other DAWs.

Why?

Asks the guy who lists two DAWs and a notation program in his sig. Maybe for the same reasons you do?

I, for one, use Studio One (in addition to Sonar) because I really like the layout and workflow of its project page for mastering. I also have Notion 5 for notation (though I seldom do more than lead sheets).