MIDI to effects in Ableton without creating a secondary track?

[KTlin]

Hi guys

While waiting for that fluffy bunny to bring you a box full of VSTs, you might wanna take a quick look at my extremely frustrating problem I have in Live.

I've already posted this on Ableton forums, but I thought it might be a good idea to post it here as well.

So, the problem: getting the MIDI signal, from the keyboard/controller, thru a synth, into the effects that are inserted after that synth, in order to control different parameter on those effects with MIDI data from the keyboard (using velocity, aftertouch, mod wheel, CCs).

In Live 8 I had to create another MIDI track and use it to send MIDI from the keyboard to the track containing the synth and the effect. So another track just for this!!! Why track 2 can send midi to the effect on track 1, but the track 1 on which that effect is, can't do it, is beyond my comprehension. And beyond my comprehension is also the reason Ableton choose to block the MIDI signal after the synth and not let it thru, in order to be used on the effects placed after the synth.
But I was under the impression that in Live 9 this has been resolved. Well.... I just found out it hasn't.
So, I'm asking: is there another way I can send midi thru a synth and into the effects that are placed after the synth?
Maybe a M4L device or something?

Cheers

[jc_vt]

Just "configure" the effect which then enables you to midi learn the parameters, with midi in on the same track.

[xbitz]

Bitwig ... , u can do it with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYgKOfOSGNs

too

[KTlin]

Bitwig ...

Thanks xbitz!
Yes, Bitwig can do this. It's one of the things Bitwig does better than Live. But I didn't go the Bitwig route yet because Halion still crashes in it, unfortunately. Also, for some strange reason, XLN Addictive Keys, Reaktor and Blue Cat Audio Patchwork don't let the MIDI pass to the effects that are placed after them. Everything else I try does.

I haven't tried Oscillot so far, and I'm not sure how it could solve my problem in Live, but I'll give it a spin.

Cheers

[UncleAge]

Bitwig ...

Thanks xbitz!
Yes, Bitwig can do this. It's one of the things Bitwig does better than Live. But I didn't go the Bitwig route yet because Halion still crashes in it, unfortunately. Also, for some strange reason, XLN Addictive Keys, Reaktor and Blue Cat Audio Patchwork don't let the MIDI pass to the effects that are placed after them. Everything else I try does.

I haven't tried Oscillot so far, and I'm not sure how it could solve my problem in Live, but I'll give it a spin.

Cheers

Did you try what jc_vt suggested?

Just "configure" the effect which then enables you to midi learn the parameters, with midi in on the same track.

[KTlin]

Did you try what jc_vt suggested?

Sorry, I missed that. I think jc_vt wrote something else first, because when I checked a couple of hours ago, it said "deleted".

The method jc_vt suggested does the trick, but only partially. For start, you cannot map velocity and aftertouch to effect parameters using this method. (but I might be able to overcome that by using something like the Expression Control device in Max4Live Essentials).

Then think about plugins like MeldaProduction stuff with very powerful MIDI modulation capabilities with a lot of in-depth settings (going way beyound what you can achieve with just the MIDI learn function), that you can also save with each preset, which is great and super useful. But in order to use that I have to get the MIDI signal into the plugin.

Cheers

[UncleAge]

Did you try what jc_vt suggested?

Sorry, I missed that. I think jc_vt wrote something else first, because when I checked a couple of hours ago, it said "deleted".

The method jc_vt suggested does the trick, but only partially. For start, you cannot map velocity and aftertouch to effect parameters using this method. (but I might be able to overcome that by using something like the Expression Control device in Max4Live Essentials).

Then think about plugins like MeldaProduction stuff with very powerful MIDI modulation capabilities with a lot of in-depth settings (going way beyound what you can achieve with just the MIDI learn function), that you can also save with each preset, which is great and super useful. But in order to use that I have to get the MIDI signal into the plugin.

Cheers

I hear ya loud and clear. Live's limitations to routing midi sent me looking for other solutions. Initially I was going to wait on BWS to hit version 2 and open up that back end in hopes of it allowing the type of routing I wanted. But while I was waiting I came across Usine HollyHock 2 and it checks those boxes for me right now. My point is that you may need to look elsewhere if that shoe doesn't fit. Reaper, Cubase, Tracktion or some other host may be a better fit. Load up some demos and see what works.

Also, shoot an email to Ableton and ask them about a possible solution. I have found their customer support to be pretty good in the past.

Good luck.

[KTlin]

I hear ya loud and clear. Live's limitations to routing midi sent me looking for other solutions. Initially I was going to wait on BWS to hit version 2 and open up that back end in hopes of it allowing the type of routing I wanted. But while I was waiting I came across Usine HollyHock 2 and it checks those boxes for me right now. My point is that you may need to look elsewhere if that shoe doesn't fit. Reaper, Cubase, Tracktion or some other host may be a better fit. Load up some demos and see what works.

Also, shoot an email to Ableton and ask them about a possible solution. I have found their customer support to be pretty good in the past.

Good luck.

Thanks mate!
I checked Usine in the past. Not quite my cup of tea in terms of GUI/workflow, but it sure is very powerful and deep. I might give it another try.
Meanwhile, I'll wait for an update to Bitwig that fix the problem with Halion.

Cheers

[BDeep]

Easy:
Select the instrument and group it (ctrl+G)
Add the External Instrument to this group
In the External instrument, select the track and device to which you want to send the midi to (in this case, the same track and the effect).

That should do it.

[KTlin]

Easy:
Select the instrument and group it (ctrl+G)
Add the External Instrument to this group
In the External instrument, select the track and device to which you want to send the midi to (in this case, the same track and the effect).

That should do it.

Yes it does!!! It's working!!! F**k yeah!!!
BDeep , man, I love you!
This is great. It's so bloody simple and efficient.
When I'll be in Amsterdam, I'll buy you a case of beers.

Cheers

[BDeep]

Easy:
Select the instrument and group it (ctrl+G)
Add the External Instrument to this group
In the External instrument, select the track and device to which you want to send the midi to (in this case, the same track and the effect).

That should do it.

Yes it does!!! It's working!!! F**k yeah!!!
BDeep , man, I love you!
This is great. It's so bloody simple and efficient.
When I'll be in Amsterdam, I'll buy you a case of beers.

Cheers

Glad it's working for you!
Actually, I've heard this very same question on some other occasions, and I'm surprised that this method isn't more known.

I might just keep you to that promise though!

[Deep Purple]

I had never thought of using it that way before. That's a good tip - thanks!

[KTlin]

Glad it's working for you!
Actually, I've heard this very same question on some other occasions, and I'm surprised that this method isn't more known.

Yes, I'm very surprised as well. I posted this thread also on Ableton forum and nobody mentioned this method. So it seems that not many people know about it, indeed.

I might just keep you to that promise though!

A promise is a promise.

[thecontrolcentre]

Easy:
Select the instrument and group it (ctrl+G)
Add the External Instrument to this group
In the External instrument, select the track and device to which you want to send the midi to (in this case, the same track and the effect).

That should do it.

Smart! Thanks for that BDeep

[UncleAge]

Easy:
Select the instrument and group it (ctrl+G)
Add the External Instrument to this group
In the External instrument, select the track and device to which you want to send the midi to (in this case, the same track and the effect).

That should do it.

Was this an improvement to the External Instrument in Live 9? I don't think you could do this in Live 8.