KVR Audio

mockingquantum · Post by **mockingquantum** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:01 pm

Hey all, I've been working in Cubase 7.5 for a while now, but I've only recently really dug into automation beyond just pushing MIDI faders on my keyboard occasionally. I'm curious, does everyone find the automation in Cubase to be kind of obtuse? It seems more time consuming than I expected to pencil in breakpoints and automation changes, at least with the default Cubase 7 for a while. I've looked through the manual, but I couldn't find mention of any kind of dedicated "automation editor" window like some DAWs have. Am I missing something totally obvious from my workflow, or is that just how Cubase is when it comes to automation? I'm still learning the program, so any insight would be greatly appreciated.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:35 pm

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EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:55 pm

TheoM wrote:the other thing is that for cubase mixer and for vst3 plugins

AFAIK VST3 plugins actually need to have support for sample-accurate automation coded separately, it's not an out-of-the-box thing for each and every VST3 plugin solely by virtue of it being VST3. At least that fact was stated by one of Reaper devs:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=10
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=15

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:22 am

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SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:20 am

With Cubase you have to separate the discussion of track/project automation and MIDI automation. They are very different beasts. There is a lot of noise about Bezier curves. Which Cubase doesn't have. But it's just noise. Totally unecessary even to draw the automation curves they want. And, totally useless and counterproductive when seeking sample accuracy for track automation (which has very questionable necessity), and tick accuracy automation for MIDI tracks.

Cubase track/project automation is primarily set up to function with controllers while the transport is running. Think mixing desk. You can rubber band the automation and get some interesting automation control, which is what I think someone was trying to point out. However, for hand drawing track automation Cubase isn't the greatest. The tools are clumsy to access. For example, Sonars smart tool is vastly superior, as is the drawing capability of FL. But, both of those programs suck ass when doing console type mixing automation.

MIDI editing is primitive in a different way. It is old school. But, old school support MIDI properly and well. Bezier does not. Again, the hand drawing is not all that great a way to do it. But, when used with external controllers it is awesome.

Anyhow, all the DAWs have a slightly different take on automation. Cubase is not the best when it comes to hand drawing complete automation events for numerous lanes for the length of song. But, is awesome for capturing and editing things that were drawn in by controller. Hope that makes sense.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:45 am

it's a general issue in the non-EM(electronic music) specific DAWs (like FL, Ableton L, Bitwig), I'm a Sonar user and have the same issue, luckily MUX(which is an easy to use modular framework) has a lovely multi-point envelope editor which can be assigned to any VST(i) parameter, using simple drag and dropping (MUX has an inner non CC based automation/modulation routing system)

it can be triggered(retriggered, looped, whatevered) by a MIDI note, so solve the automation "patternization"

in the same time just have to put the trigger note to the given points of the project

http://www.mutools.com/mux-product.html

mockingquantum · Post by **mockingquantum** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:29 pm

SJ_Digriz wrote:With Cubase you have to separate the discussion of track/project automation and MIDI automation. They are very different beasts. There is a lot of noise about Bezier curves. Which Cubase doesn't have. But it's just noise. Totally unecessary even to draw the automation curves they want. And, totally useless and counterproductive when seeking sample accuracy for track automation (which has very questionable necessity), and tick accuracy automation for MIDI tracks.

Cubase track/project automation is primarily set up to function with controllers while the transport is running. Think mixing desk. You can rubber band the automation and get some interesting automation control, which is what I think someone was trying to point out. However, for hand drawing track automation Cubase isn't the greatest. The tools are clumsy to access. For example, Sonars smart tool is vastly superior, as is the drawing capability of FL. But, both of those programs suck ass when doing console type mixing automation.

MIDI editing is primitive in a different way. It is old school. But, old school support MIDI properly and well. Bezier does not. Again, the hand drawing is not all that great a way to do it. But, when used with external controllers it is awesome.

Anyhow, all the DAWs have a slightly different take on automation. Cubase is not the best when it comes to hand drawing complete automation events for numerous lanes for the length of song. But, is awesome for capturing and editing things that were drawn in by controller. Hope that makes sense.

I think you definitely hit the nail on the head here, at least as far as my complaints are concerned. Everything about track automation in Cubase seems finicky for hand-drawing. I think part of the issue for me is that there's very little in the way of visual cues as to what level you're at on any auto curve. The only way you can visually tell what level different breakpoints are at is by grabbing them (at least as far as I'm aware). I know you should never be mixing visually, but given that I don't really have any controllers with faders, I'm largely drawing in automation while stopped anyway. I've been playing around more with the Touch/Auto-Latch/Crossover options, and that seems to have simplified my automation somewhat when I just mouse faders around, but it still feels needlessly slow.

mockingquantum · Post by **mockingquantum** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:32 pm

xbitz wrote:it's a general issue in the non-EM(electronic music) specific DAWs (like FL, Ableton L, Bitwig), I'm a Sonar user and have the same issue, luckily MUX(which is an easy to use modular framework) has a lovely multi-point envelope editor which can be assigned to any VST(i) parameter, using simple drag and dropping (MUX has an inner non CC based automation/modulation routing system)

it can be triggered(retriggered, looped, whatevered) by a MIDI note, so solve the automation "patternization" in the same time just have to put the trigger note to the given points of the project

http://www.mutools.com/mux-product.html

This is definitely interesting. I'm not sure how likely I am to throw money at a plugin to solve the problem, but it's good to know that there are options like this out there that offer envelope editors. I mean, Cubase also has an envelope editor built in, though it's tied to clip (or event, in Cubase terminology) gain rather than track gain. I suppose it's totally an option to just move around clip gain, though I think that would bring it's own set of problems, especially if I wasn't meticulous about gain staging.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:49 pm

I don't like automation in most hosts. Wonder why most of them give you such a hard time doing easy tasks.

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:20 pm

I've never really had an issue with automation that doesn't always show the levels when manually editing, I just always listen as I edit and it's right when it sounds right.

Otoh, I've not had much need to draw the complex tempo synced filter curves and things many here seem to regularly do so the complaints about methodologies for that is just not anything I'd run into.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:27 pm

LawrenceF wrote:... complex tempo synced filter curves

this is how it can be done with Sonar and MUX, so how can be added filter curves to transients in Sonar (using its inbuilt transient to MIDI extraction algorithm)

created from scratch so can be interesting for the non Sonar/MUX users, shows some workflow with them

tristan- · Post by **tristan-** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:09 am

xbitz, could you please explain, how MUX is being set up in Sonar to control tracks automation (in steps)?

also, is it required to load the VST inst in MUX?

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:21 am

Hmm.... not a hassle but some things needs an improvement

Because there are no Bezier curves I'm often not really happy with the results for filter sweeps etc. It needs a lot more work to have some non-linear automation "curve". I've tested this with Bitwig and other DAW and it works a _lot_ better and the results are also better.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:33 pm

tristan- wrote:xbitz, could you please explain, how MUX is being set up in Sonar to control tracks automation (in steps)?

also, is it required to load the VST inst in MUX?

can it be looped back ( http://www.cableguys.com/midi-shaper-sonar.html ) with some virtual MIDI cable but I'm using only it for Sonar>MUX one way communication (or MUX<>MUX ones inside Sonar )

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:42 pm

It's a bit funny to hear all the complaints about how hard it is to edit automation in various DAWs and then watch that video as the supposed solution, and then watch a demonstration of the most convoluted and tedious method in the history of DAWs.

Is automation in Cubase just a hassle?