Question for the seasoned multiple DAW owners

[Spiritos]

Actually I wrote exactly about the points you ask Spiritos! But, I deleted the paragraphs because I felt I'm talking a lot!

Man, I gave up cutting down my replies as I just have long breath. Feel free to elaborate!

As I mentioned before it's predominantly the uniformity of GUI's and the presence of Session View that's making it hard for me to adopt to Live's workflow. It's definitely a psychological thing.

I don't own any 3rd party FX/EQ-plugins yet as I wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. I can use Sonar stuff in Live ofcourse but I have this spartan state of mind forcing myself to use what's 'in the box' so I don't exchange between them (aside from synths).

Another difficult thing for me about Live is that there are so many ways to achieve something that, when learning by yourself (I have no one in my vicinity that works with DAWs) it's hard to tell whether I should learn it all or let some methods be as they are -based on experience and pov's.

But also based on the feedback here I feel I'm going to dedicate myself to working with Live now for a while. I'm not at the point yet where I'm learning about proper mixing but when I reach that I'll probably compare the 2 some more.

And once again a big tnx for the feedback! I realise -as a more experienced user- it can get kinda' repetitive responding to all the basic questions from people starting out but it's highly appreciated!

[EnGee]

As I mentioned before it's predominantly the uniformity of GUI's and the presence of Session View that's making it hard for me to adopt to Live's workflow. It's definitely a psychological thing.

Many years ago I hated the 2D design of the knobs in Live! but it seems not only I changed my life style in the recent years, I also changed my taste and now I see it soooooo nice! I don't understand now why I didn't like it in the past!

Now about the Session View, it is the same as the Matrix in Sonar. It also functions as a mixer in Live.

I used a nice workflow in Sonar for a while. Matrix and Tracks above it, then dragging and dropping instruments tracks (midi) into the Matrix (after Ctrl + L, to make them loops) to make further arrangements, then drag them back to tracks when deciding how they must go.
Live is easier because you can record into the clip directly while in the Matrix in Sonar you can't.

Good luck in whatever you choose, they are all very powerful tools

[echosystm]

Now I've kinda got my mind set on learning myself to work with Live as I want to keep the option open of performing live with it one day.

Producing and performing are two different things. If you try to combine them, you will make compromises in one or the other. Given that you don't even know if you will be doing performing, I think you should focus on learning a DAW that is designed primarily for production. Ableton is not the best choice for that, because many production requirements are sacrificed to support performance use cases (latency compensation, metering and so on).

[dsan@mail.com]

I mostly agree with what you say echosystm; however, I find Live quite inspiring for early part of production.

You are right in that Live was designed more for performing but it does have its merits in production. I particularly like being able to easily move clips around to form a song. I find this more difficult in a linear DAW.

I rarely finish in Live though, taking the production to another DAW for mixing/mastering.

Based on Engees comments though I think I will give Sonar's Matrix another chance. I really never found it as intuitive to use as Live's Session View. Perhaps with more use I will be able to find a new perspective.

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[EnGee]

Based on Engees comments though I think I will give Sonar's Matrix another chance. I really never found it as intuitive to use as Live's Session View. Perhaps with more use I will be able to find a new perspective.

Happy Musiking!
dsan

This video below demonstrates the same workflow I like to use in Sonar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KgqhKQDywc

What I miss in Live is auditioning the midi in the browser, but of course working in Session View has its advantages like recording directly to the clip and in Live 9, recording automation as well.

IMO it is good to know the strengths and weaknesses of our tools. That gives us a better idea of the best use of them.
Anyway, I think I want to make a song from start to finish in one DAW. I don't want to start in a DAW then render and finish in another one anymore. It is tiring when I go back and forth between them. So, for now I have two songs, one in Sonar and another in Live and I feel better this way

[Spiritos]

Producing and performing are two different things. If you try to combine them, you will make compromises in one or the other. Given that you don't even know if you will be doing performing, I think you should focus on learning a DAW that is designed primarily for production. Ableton is not the best choice for that, because many production requirements are sacrificed to support performance use cases (latency compensation, metering and so on).

The last sentence was indeed one of the reasons why I doubted choosing Live. I've known about and noticed the PDC issues. As for metering I recall reading somewhere that all digital metering is flawed as opposed to VU but I'm not 'there' yet in my learning process.

About the produce/perform issue.. I feel that *because* I don't know if I will use it in the future I might as well incorporate it in my learning because if I don't and I do need it I'd have to learn a different DAW and workflow all the same.

I have been playing in bands for about 20 years and although working with DAW's kinda' pushes me towards electronic music I also intent to use it to dress up my singer-songwriter stuff (producing) but the thought of being able to perform without a band, just me, a piano or guitar with a laptop does open up possibilities.

[SLiC]

I have live, cubase, reaper and maschine...for the most part I consider Ableton Live as an instrument equivalent to an advanced hardware workstation! Forget the term DAW, they are all just musical tools, the more tools you know about the more likely you are to find the right tool for the right job (although so time using the wrong tool can lead to interesting creative results!)

Also, as a hobbiest, I actully enjoy learning knew thing (aka playing with new toys!) and will no doubt check out Bitwig when it comes out this week if it's fun, just do it!

[dsan@mail.com]

EnGee - thanks for the link to that vid.

It has given me a different perspective on utilization and I can see some possibilites in my work flow.

I'm curious what you mean about auditioning a clip in the Live browser. I do this quite often so it is possible; however, I can't figure out a way to audition using a specific track - it plays by some unknown instrument (and randomely chages it) which I do not care for. So most often I do a lot of dropping/deleting so I can play a clip using an instrument of choice. But even before I drop it in a track I am able to get a sense of "Will it fit?".

Perhaps someday I'll RTFM


Happy Musiking!
dsan

[dsan@mail.com]

Good points SLiC

Pretty much my thoughts as well

The more DAW's I have the more I like it

I really should narrow things down but the truth is each DAW has its own set of merits, and faults, so it difficult to just select one.

I am looking forward to trying out BWS in the coming days though

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[EnGee]

EnGee - thanks for the link to that vid.

It has given me a different perspective on utilization and I can see some possibilites in my work flow.

You are welcome. Glad you found it useful

I'm curious what you mean about auditioning a clip in the Live browser. I do this quite often so it is possible; however, I can't figure out a way to audition using a specific track - it plays by some unknown instrument (and randomely chages it) which I do not care for. So most often I do a lot of dropping/deleting so I can play a clip using an instrument of choice. But even before I drop it in a track I am able to get a sense of "Will it fit?".

I always audition midi (especially grooves) and usually I choose different kits. For example in Sonar, Cubase and S1 (before) I load three drums instruments in three tracks, then choose different kits, then I audition the midi grooves by routing to one of the three kits and ...so on till I find a nice combination. When I find something nice, I drag and drop it (in Sonar in the Matrix first then the tracks later). Although only in Cubase I can switch between original tempo and host tempo!! In Sonar (and S1 before) the switch doesn't work . It is always the host tempo

In Live, I can't audition midi grooves from the browser by routing the midi to an instrument. I've searched in their forum and it seems I only can hear the midi grooves when I drag and drop into a clip in instrument column. Because auditioning in the browser just gives me one clicky sound! I hope I missed something.

Of course this is not only for grooves, I use this for chord progression as well (I have saved some that I like to reuse).

Perhaps someday I'll RTFM

I'm still in page 92 in Live's Manual. Sonar's Reference? page 300 something (from 2090 pages )

Anyway, I love both of them really. Sonar makes me want to buy a Guitar (I'm a very bad player though!) while Live is pushing me towards Push!