Key changing/chord progressions to differnt song parts

[cj31387]

Hi, does anyone know a website or direct link of info on generally what key changes sound good from say: verse to prechorus to chorus to bridge ect. what things to factor in, in tieing in your parts. If for instance you make a 4 bar chord progression for a verse, do you then make a perfect 5th (up or down) for the first note of the chorus or prechorus also which do you base the fifth off of, the first note of the verses 4 bar chord progression or the last bar? I just want very easy to understand general info on the key relations to each part of a song verse chorus bridge all that. Geared more towards pop music. Also maybe pop song layouts that are used kind of frequently. Thanks

[JumpingJackFlash]

Hi, does anyone know a website or direct link of info on generally what key changes sound good from say: verse to prechorus to chorus to bridge ect. what things to factor in, in tieing in your parts. If for instance you make a 4 bar chord progression for a verse, do you then make a perfect 5th (up or down) for the first note of the chorus or prechorus also which do you base the fifth off of, the first note of the verses 4 bar chord progression or the last bar? I just want very easy to understand general info on the key relations to each part of a song verse chorus bridge all that. Geared more towards pop music. Also maybe pop song layouts that are used kind of frequently. Thanks

The following may be of some use:
An introduction to modulation (changing key)

There are no "rules", however moving between keys that are closely related (have many notes in common) will usually be smoother than moving between distantly related keys (with few notes in common). Sometimes you want a 'hit-you-in-the-face' key change where the final chorus might be a tone (or even semitone) higher than before. Other times, you will want a less obvious change, for example the chorus might be in the dominant or subdominant key.

[revo11]

asking this question probably means you're not doing this right. Melody first, chords around the melody...

[kcisANDderit]

Melody first, chords around the melody...

says who?

do whatever works for you

[kcisANDderit]

I just want very easy to understand general info on the key relations to each part of a song verse chorus bridge all that. Geared more towards pop music. Also maybe pop song layouts that are used kind of frequently. Thanks

not many pop songs today modulate from section to section or at all (i can't think of any. you?). there are tons of songs that play the same chord progression for verse and chorus with the bridge or middle 8 being the only difference (if there is that)

a long time ago it was common in pop songs (way over done to the point of cliche, imo) to modulate a 1/2 step up for the last verse to the end, sometimes again for the last chorus

remember, a modulation is where a new key is clearly established, not just using borrowed chords

[revo11]

The op is interested in pop music. I can't think of a single pop song (tasteful or tasteless) that works as a pop song that isn't structured to work in service of melody. Even more abstract popular music like fennesz, autechre, or more rhythmic centric modern r&B and hip hop is held together by an underlying melodicism. melodies can be hidden in chord voicings or even timbral elements like filter frequencies or sonorous qualities of word choices, it's not always in the form of sinatra belting out something over an arrangement.

I should know better than to get into kvr debates about music philosophy. So I'm going to leave it at this... feel free to disagree.

Melody first, chords around the melody...

says who?

do whatever works for you

[tapper mike]

Oddly most don't. Usually you'll have a modulation in the bridge but it's a direct modulation.

Many Verse/chorus changes have to do with simply reorginizing the order of the chords that are used and or going to a neighboring key such as D to A. With only one not difference it doesn't seem like that much of a change. The lesser common type modulations but still highly effective are modulated a full step up.

[cj31387]

ha my bad on saying pop, your right current pop usually uses the same chord progression throughout the whole song. Although I do like Paramore they do seem to change keys in some songs. But if i could give a example it would probably be pop from 1992-2008? maybe. Here's a song example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjgdhr5fRUA the last chorus is a perfect fifth of the the second note in the verse's chord progression.

A second question: In good songs, what are the main differences in the chorus key wise and note wise than the verses, that make them far more intense sounding. Thanks

I have a third question that I've always wanted to know but ill wait to ask it.

[jancivil]

there is no formula for 'good'. 'good' is a matter of 'skill', 'craft'. the same device could be great in one person's hands and complete shit in the next person's.

[cj31387]

there is no formula for 'good'. 'good' is a matter of 'skill', 'craft'. the same device could be great in one person's hands and complete shit in the next person's.

True, but a lot of people consider songs in major keys usually good, and when people make songs in major keys that are really good they are somewhat similar to other good songs and follow rules I want to know.

[JJBiener]

First rule: Stop thinking, stop analyzing and start listening. I was a music major and it ruined me for years. It was only after I freed myself from all of the "rules" that I was finally able to create the kind of music I like. Your ears will tell you what works and what doesn't. Experiment. Try every possibility, after all there just aren't that many. See what works for you on that particular song at that moment. Many times I have had people ask me what I am playing, and when I tell them, they say, "That's not supposed to work." And I say, "But it does." Music theory is only a tool. It should not be a straight jacket.

[cj31387]

I've been making songs for about 13 years, self taught completely I still cannot even read notation, but I'm deciding if i should learn music theory fully or not. Usually when I'm making my verse for my song it sounds really good and I can hear in my head the explosive chorus that should come but I haven't truly found it in one my songs yet. At least not what I hear in my head. I've developed solid formulas pretty much for my style of music, I can make a good song in like 5 minutes. I cant say that music theory says that some things should not be done because I have no real "studied" knowledge of music theory, but what I personally believe is music theory just has not been expanded to current music. This is my personal belief, but I believe every human born that can hear, instinctively subconsciously knows all the rules to music theory. If they did not all music would either sound JUST good or JUST bad (Noise), but for some reason most humans develop certain tastes that usually coincide with their personality and the way they were raised that I believe derive from a base subconscious knowledge of music theory, and I'm not talking whats taught in the real world as music theory, maybe i should say music fact (what we have not discovered yet). But my point is I personally believe every hearing human knows good or bad music, thus they know the so called rules. If they didn't music would all sound like noise. Based on that belief I believe you could make a formula for any type of song, but we aren't there yet in figuring it out.

[JJBiener]

I've been making songs for about 13 years, self taught completely I still cannot even read notation, but I'm deciding if i should learn music theory fully or not. Usually when I'm making my verse for my song it sounds really good and I can hear in my head the explosive chorus that should come but I haven't truly found it in one my songs yet. At least not what I hear in my head. I've developed solid formulas pretty much for my style of music, I can make a good song in like 5 minutes. I cant say that music theory says that some things should not be done because I have no real "studied" knowledge of music theory, but what I personally believe is music theory just has not been expanded to current music. This is my personal belief, but I believe every human born that can hear, instinctively subconsciously knows all the rules to music theory. If they did not all music would either sound JUST good or JUST bad (Noise), but for some reason most humans develop certain tastes that usually coincide with their personality and the way they were raised that I believe derive from a base subconscious knowledge of music theory, and I'm not talking whats taught in the real world as music theory, maybe i should say music fact (what we have not discovered yet). But my point is I personally believe every hearing human knows good or bad music, thus they know the so called rules. If they didn't music would all sound like noise. Based on that belief I believe you could make a formula for any type of song, but we aren't there yet in figuring it out.

Learning music theory is never a bad idea. The important parts to learn from it are how to analyze music and take that analysis and use it to help you create music. As I wrote above, I studied music theory in college and as a result, I can take any collection of notes and tell you what chord it. Is this useful? Well, somewhat.

What is more useful is that by understanding music theory, you will have a broader pallette of sounds from which to draw. When you are stuck trying to figure out where a piece of music should go, it will give you some suggestions. It will allow you to try out new chords or new modes you might not have stumbled upon on your own. From that standpoint it is useful. Just don't take it as a set of hard and fast rules which must always be obeyed.

[cj31387]

Yeah analysis is what i really would want to focus on, What parts of music theory would i need to learn to effectively analyze any song? I know notation for sure, which I'm going to learn asap, but what other things should i focus on to be a great song analyzer? Thanks

[JJBiener]

Yeah analysis is what i really would want to focus on, What parts of music theory would i need to learn to effectively analyze any song? I know notation for sure, which I'm going to learn asap, but what other things should i focus on to be a great song analyzer? Thanks

Start with notes, intervals, scales, modes, and chords. That will give you a good basis. If need more after that, pm me and we will see where we can go from there.