Diatonic modes vs circle of fifths

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jancivil wrote:Definitely all true. Of the brilliant minds, much as in jazz quite a bit later and as people availed themselves of a musical education more than just the street learning.

But as my professor in 'harmony' at CCM was very interested in Messiaen, his job was to train us to part-write by roman numerals and figured bass.

Many of the developments have to do with embracing linear concepts which is where harmony sprouted out of, so as I say, the educated musician makes the distinction and I acknowledge my dichotomy as a bit glib. I would shine a light on the tendencies there that did look to the east.
I have to confess I am not that much interested in jazz, and find all this talk about "chords" somehow like a thing of the past (late romantics were already much ahead of that thought, and we are talking about the end of the XIXth century).

Back on topic, and to the OP, I'd like to share some of my thoughts regarding modes, because it's a subject I am particularly fond of:

The circle of fifths is very much connected with the tonal system and the tonal way of thinking - functional harmony, and progressing in fifths is the simplest way, because tonalities at the fifth above or below are the closest. I don't think it adds that much to modes. Actually, I think it would be more of an obstacle.

Modes are in no way related to fifths. Back in the Middle Ages until the Renaissance, when modes were commonly used, each mode had a spirit (a mood), and that's how they were chosen for a certain composition. If, in the middle of the composition, the author wanted to change the spirit, he would change "mode" - he would "modulate" to another mode, and the music would change... as simple as that.

There were no transpositions - that concept were extraneous to modal thought, or to music itself, because there was no fixed pitches. Usually, singers would follow the church organ, or any instrument that had a fixed pitch (like the flutes). The stringed instruments would be tuned accordingly. You could find organs that vary on pitch from other organs by two or more tones - that was not important, and did not prevent people to sing in the same mode (they simply transpose the melodies accordingly, like pop singers do nowadays, constantly.

If you want to use modes now, and preserve their spirit, you must "forget" anything you learned about tonics, dominants, ii-V-I, whatever. You must sing the tone, feel it, let it grow on you, and use very simple and fluid melodic accompaniments, that let the melody live. Find the intervals that define the tone (the lack of lead tone in the vii in the first and third modes is one of them, the half-tone interval from the first to the second degree in the third mode or E mode - your phrygian, is another, etc.).

Avoid "chord progressions", because, as Jancivil pointed, you may fall in the trap of tonal atractions (very easily), and that will destroy the mode, immediately. You may use chords, if carefully, but think in them as superimposed intervals created by different melodies sounding together. Give the main role to the melodies, even on the bass and other voices. If you want fills, create long sounding pads, rather than chord progressions - modes work well with them.

You may transpose, but I would transpose only if/when in need to change registers, to achieve different sonorities in the instrument or voice, or something like that. Use the main music principle here: "repetition and variation".

You can also use sound aggregates, but those depend on the mode and the style of writing - key here is "avoid tonality".

For an example of a modern use of modes in a composition, I advise to listen and read the "Quatre études de rythme" by Olivier Messiaen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatre_%C3 ... _de_rythme). These are for piano solo, so, easier to study and understand, and are a good example of Messiaen particular view on the modes and rhythms. Not exactly "diatonic", but good.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: The circle of fifths is very much connected with the tonal system and the tonal way of thinking - functional harmony, and progressing in fifths is the simplest way, because tonalities at the fifth above or below are the closest. I don't think it adds that much to modes. Actually, I think it would be more of an obstacle.

Modes are in no way related to fifths. Back in the Middle Ages until the Renaissance, when modes were commonly used, each mode had a spirit (a mood), and that's how they were chosen for a certain composition. If, in the middle of the composition, the author wanted to change the spirit, he would change "mode" - he would "modulate" to another mode, and the music would change... as simple as that.
I'd disagree here... traditional European modes are built of consecutive 5ths, and it took centuries for non diatonic notes (ie notes not based on consecutive 5ths) to appear, by which point European music was getting less modal. Arabic and Indian music are a much better examples of modal music not built out of fifth-based intervals, but even there the 5th always looms close. If anything, I'd say that European modal music is probably more 5th based than the later major/minor style - less chromatic melody noes and fast borrowing, no minor harmonic scale augmented second yet, etc.
fmr wrote:[...]
For an example of a modern use of modes in a composition, I advise to listen and read the "Quatre études de rythme" by Olivier Messiaen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatre_%C3 ... _de_rythme). These are for piano solo, so, easier to study and understand, and are a good example of Messiaen particular view on the modes and rhythms. Not exactly "diatonic", but good.
That's NOT something I'd call "modal", at least definitely not in the usual meaning of the term...

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MadBrain wrote:
fmr wrote: The circle of fifths is very much connected with the tonal system and the tonal way of thinking - functional harmony, and progressing in fifths is the simplest way, because tonalities at the fifth above or below are the closest. I don't think it adds that much to modes. Actually, I think it would be more of an obstacle.

Modes are in no way related to fifths. Back in the Middle Ages until the Renaissance, when modes were commonly used, each mode had a spirit (a mood), and that's how they were chosen for a certain composition. If, in the middle of the composition, the author wanted to change the spirit, he would change "mode" - he would "modulate" to another mode, and the music would change... as simple as that.
I'd disagree here... traditional European modes are built of consecutive 5ths, and it took centuries for non diatonic notes (ie notes not based on consecutive 5ths) to appear, by which point European music was getting less modal. Arabic and Indian music are a much better examples of modal music not built out of fifth-based intervals, but even there the 5th always looms close. If anything, I'd say that European modal music is probably more 5th based than the later major/minor style - less chromatic melody noes and fast borrowing, no minor harmonic scale augmented second yet, etc.
Indian music is absolutely based in fifths. The the way of life or 'rules' for a raga are absolutely fifths based, it is fundamental to the thought. The intonation system, the adjustments [eg., syntonic comma] function to provide perfect 3:2 where it doesn't happen, in melody*. The drone is typically a fifth. The 3:2 interval is inviolate in most every description of an intonation system in both the Hindustani and Carnatic systems. The exceptions are very special and esoteric and most people won't be the least interested in it in practice or even talk about it as theory.

The whole history of describing or collating a row of tones for melody comes out of stacking fifths and adjusting the 3:2 into 2:1 since these two do not agree geometrically. The pythagorean comma accomplished that, and then other ways of manufacturing intervals followed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorea ... _intervals
This is the fountain of scales construction. The Arabs are totally based in the Greek theory, although they went further than anyone in dealing with ratios and building instruments in emulation of their vocal inflections and ethnic sound, both going hand in hand.

It is very errant to state 'modes', or 'Indian music' ie., raga are not based in or have nothing to do with fifths. The history of intonation begins with fifths. The difference between {North Indian} Thaat and [what we have received via] the church modes is not substantial. EG (apart from not actually tuned to 12tET but close enough for rock 'n roll, we can call it 5 limit just*):

Kalyan = Lydian mode.
Bilaval = Ionian mode.
Khamaj = Mixolydian.
Kafi = Dorian.
Asavari = Aeolian.
Bhairavi = Phrygian.

There isn't a Locrian equal. b5 doesn't happen, although #4 with no fifth does.
Modes are, thaats are, ways of making a row out of 12 to an octave are founded in 3:2 taken out to a certain limit, which was close to unity, at 12.

You are proceeding from a really fundamental error: "non diatonic notes (ie notes not based on consecutive 5ths)". Where do you get that?

All 12 tones we have are out of stacking the P5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_inton ... ean_tuning

*:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_inton ... ian_scales

The preferences that had people arriving at 7 note modes we know is historical. Do you believe the augmented second was not known and one day they found it? What happened, can you demonstrate? What would be the argument against 1 #2 3 or 5 b6 ^7 really? Here are 12 inside of 2:1 out of your fifths. What's the preference based in then? Why only tone and semitone? Do you think that's natural or something? We've been here before.
Do you know what the Greeks did with this? At what point does this stuff happen, and why?
The South Indian melakarta system gives 72 seven note rows completely methodically, without prejudice. Think about this! OTOH, the Hindustani theory was codified in the 19th c.
The Arabic theory is based in the same greek theory as everything else, it's just that they wanted more complexity out of it and didn't disregard the smaller intervals found out of the experiments, but went further with calculating and measuring them.
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi-s_Uds.htm
CF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic_scale

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jancivil wrote: Kalyan = Lydian mode.
Bilaval = Ionian mode.
Khamaj = Mixolydian.
Kafi = Dorian.
Asavari = Aeolian.
Bhairavi = Phrygian.

There isn't a Locrian equal. b5 doesn't happen, although #4 with no fifth does.

But you have posed a difference that is not real, in terms of foundation. Modes are, diatonic scales are, founded in 3:2, there is no extricating them.
The augmented second was banned, it isn't that they did not have it and one day they found it.

You are proceeding from a really fundamental error: "non diatonic notes (ie notes not based on consecutive 5ths)". Where do you get that?

All 12 tones we have are out of stacking the P5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_inton ... ean_tuning

*:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_inton ... ian_scales

The preferences that had people arriving at modes is historical, there isn't a basic set that is obviously more simple out of stacking 3:2 and making commas so it fits 2:1. The Arabic theory is based in the same theory as anything else, it's just that they wanted more complexity out of it and didn't disregard the smaller intervals found out of the experiments.
I think we are talking about different things here. I am not talking about the "creation" of the modes, nor about the fundamental 3/2 relation that created the fifth. Nor did the OP - he mentioned "the circle of fifths", and so do I, and that's a different thing of "the fifth". I'm talking about the relation between modes, in opostition to the relation between tonalities, which is very well represented in the circle of fifths.

In what way does "the circle of fifths" explain the relation between the mode of D and the mode of E, for example? And in no place did I mention "non diatonic notes".

Regarding modes, we disagree (we have disagreed before). Where you see 12 modes, I just see 4 authentic and 4 plagal modes (Protus, Deuterus, Tritus and Tetrardus). Having D mode, and E mode, and F mode and G mode does not build anything with resemblance to the circle of fifths. Even the "repercusas" of the modes were not always the fifth note (in the mode of E, it was C, for example).

Sure, the plagal starting note have a 5th relation to the starting note of the authentic, but that's pretty much it.

The rest is based in a theoretical building of Boethius (even him do not mention twelve modes, but just ten, if I'm not mistaken), in an atempt to understand and explain greek music, and do not have a counterpart in the musical practice. All those attempts to create an absolute system with twelve modes, and the attribution of greek names, is a nonsense, and is erroneous.

Later, when the polyphony started to become stronger, there started to appear stronger relations of fifths, specially in the cadences, but that ended in tonality, as we know.
Last edited by fmr on Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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MadBrain wrote:
fmr wrote:[...]
For an example of a modern use of modes in a composition, I advise to listen and read the "Quatre études de rythme" by Olivier Messiaen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatre_%C3 ... _de_rythme). These are for piano solo, so, easier to study and understand, and are a good example of Messiaen particular view on the modes and rhythms. Not exactly "diatonic", but good.
That's NOT something I'd call "modal", at least definitely not in the usual meaning of the term...
I don't know what you call it (what's the "usual" meaning of the term, anyway? It's being misused here all the time), but it certainly is modal. Read the analysis, study the pieces, study Messian system of "modes of limited transpositions" and then we'll talk.
Last edited by fmr on Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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MadBrain wrote:traditional European modes are built of consecutive 5ths
No they weren't.
The ecclesiastical modes, as they were understood in Medieval times, came into use as a means or organising and categorising Gregorian chants (and relating them to ancient Greek theories).

The fifth relation is a feature of tonality, not modality.
It's also inherently a harmonic thing, and harmony wasn't a considered feature of ecclesiastical modality until the end of its life, by which time the beginnings of tonality had already started to assert themselves.

For example; although the "dominant" of the Dorian mode was A, the "dominant" of the Hypodorian mode (also with a Final on D) was F.
MadBrain wrote:and it took centuries for non diatonic notes (ie notes not based on consecutive 5ths) to appear
This isn't quite true either.
Notes from outside the mode may not have been notated, but they were used in practise almost from the beginning.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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This article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29 - very well explains all the confusion that has been created around the medieval (or church) modes, leading to the chaos reflected in current discussion, and others that have been arousing in KVR (although the addendum after the musical examples, under the subtitle modern again confused everything).

In a more circunspect register, you have these two articles fom Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... hurch-mode and http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... ight-modes

Also, bear in mind that the "modes" are not confined to these. As I said before, Debussy also used modes, notably the whole tone mode, and Messian created a new modal system, which departed exactly from the whole tone mode used by Debussy.
There are also other modes, originated in other areas of the globe, like the arab modes and indian modes quoted by Jancivil, gypsy modes, jewish modes, chinese, etc.

Many can even share the same notes and yet be totally different, because the way they are used differ.
But they all have something in common - they don't rely on chords.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote:
jancivil wrote:
All 12 tones we have are out of stacking the P5.
I think we are talking about different things here. I am not talking about the "creation" of the modes, nor about the fundamental 3/2 relation that created the fifth.
I'm responding there to two statements, one by you and one by 'MadBrain': 'Modes have nothing to do with fifths' and 'Indian and Arab music better represent music not built by fifths'. I had no means in which to, well, 'interpret' the first assertion, and as I am versed in Indian raga, I know that MadBrain's remark is baseless and completely wrong.

Indian Music and Arabic music are quite differently constructed and the forms and ideals are not the same. Particularly Hindustani classical music is affected more by the west, hence my remark the theory we see today was brought together by Bhatkande who died in 1930. Bilaval Thaat isn't going to be one of the older 'modes'.

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fmr wrote: I am not talking about the "creation" of the modes, nor about the fundamental 3/2 relation that created the fifth. Nor did the OP - he mentioned "the circle of fifths", and so do I, and that's a different thing of "the fifth". I'm talking about the relation between modes, in opostition to the relation between tonalities, which is very well represented in the circle of fifths.

In what way does "the circle of fifths" explain the relation between the mode of D and the mode of E, for example? And in no place did I mention "non diatonic notes".
I wasn't talking about the circle of fifths, the remarks address 'nothing to do with' which is not particular.
fmr wrote: Regarding modes, we disagree (we have disagreed before). Where you see 12 modes, I just see 4 authentic and 4 plagal modes (Protus, Deuterus, Tritus and Tetrardus). Having D mode, and E mode, and F mode and G mode does not build anything with resemblance to the circle of fifths. Even the "repercusas" of the modes were not always the fifth note (in the mode of E, it was C, for example).
No, I don't proceed from that, I wouldn't know what to do with "12 modes". I would I think want to restrict the term here to the 7 modes out of 7 tones. And while I did put the equals sign between 6 of the modes and Hindustani Thaats, that was just a time-saver. I do not call them 'modes', they are parents to ragas whose meaning is exposited in the raga rather than the western thinking about modes, such as we see from jazzers conflating them with scales for usage.

I will say however that I wouldn't restrict it to white keys/based in C as those terms are very specifically tied to a certain area of history. They derive from Greek modes where G was the bottom tone or base. Gamma=Ut, where our word gamut derived. So these terms 'mode of E' I don't care for, I'm a modern-day musician that doesn't share your level of interest in that time.
fmr wrote: Sure, the plagal starting note have a 5th relation to the starting note of the authentic, but that's pretty much it.

The rest is based in a theoretical building of Boethius (even him do not mention twelve modes, but just ten, if I'm not mistaken), in an atempt to understand and explain greek music, and do not have a counterpart in the musical practice. All those attempts to create an absolute system with twelve modes, and the attribution of greek names, is a nonsense, and is erroneous.
I never even looked at that, that is where I rather bolt from historical theory as a great muddle and musically of no use to me.
Last edited by jancivil on Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JumpingJackFlash wrote:
MadBrain wrote:traditional European modes are built of consecutive 5ths
No they weren't.
The ecclesiastical modes, as they were understood in Medieval times, came into use as a means or organising and categorising Gregorian chants (and relating them to ancient Greek theories).

The fifth relation is a feature of tonality, not modality.
This is a communications breakdown, based in words that are really general being taken by you and fmr to be particular things out of a particular understanding. 'The fifth relation', well I know what you mean by your context, but 'fifth relation' has not been defined for every person that would read this. In terms of the English language, all we have is three words and I would say with some confidence that there are 'relations at the fifth', such as scalar resources AT ALL derive from, at least in our received material.

It's hard to make sense of 'as a means of __ Gregorian chants' without it being gone into. Immediately following you say it relates to the ancient Greek theories, so I would think (objectively, as if I'm new to the material) that 'Gregorian chants' is not the true parent of 'ecclesiastical modes'.

I have not seen a belief about transposition by [circle of] 5ths in the ecclesiastical modal usage presented here. But I definitely can agree with 'built of fifths' although I like 'stacked' as less ambiguous (given the objections) than 'consecutive'. If you are indeed trying to say they were not built by that, what would you say was the building blocks for them? 'Gregorian chant' I think is not a basis but a result.
Illogical.

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jancivil wrote:This is a failure to communicate based in words that are really general being taken by you and fmr to be particular things out of a particular understanding. 'The fifth relation', well I know what you mean by your context, but 'fifth relation' has not been defined for every person that would read this.
...
It's hard to make sense of 'as a means of __ Gregorian chants' without it being gone into
I accept your point here on both counts. I apologise for the brevity, but I assumed MadBrain would understand what I meant. More detail can be provided if necessary.

The bottom line however is that the ecclesiastical modes were NOT derived from stacking fifths (or however you want to put it). That's the cart leading the horse there; trying to reverse engineer things and apply our modern thinking to a time when it wasn't applicable.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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JumpingJackFlash wrote:
jancivil wrote:This is a failure to communicate based in words that are really general being taken by you and fmr to be particular things out of a particular understanding. 'The fifth relation', well I know what you mean by your context, but 'fifth relation' has not been defined for every person that would read this.
...
It's hard to make sense of 'as a means of __ Gregorian chants' without it being gone into
I accept your point here on both counts. I apologise for the brevity, but I assumed MadBrain would understand what I meant. More detail can be provided if necessary.

The bottom line however is that the ecclesiastical modes were NOT derived from stacking fifths (or however you want to put it). That's the cart leading the horse there; trying to reverse engineer things and apply our modern thinking to a time when it wasn't applicable.
My point as to our 12 derive from stacking fifths is partly to show that the 7 modes of a row of 7 tones is cultural and historical. One can assert that restricting to tones and semitones in these is the most natural way to go, but I don't buy it and a lot of the world was less interested in doing that.

So while thaat resembles modes [out of Bhatkande, who for a lot of reasons was not disagreeable to people], that aren't that. They aren't derived per ecclesiastical method eg., 'mode of E', there is a theoretical history that is similar to that but it demonstrably is not doing that. So there is a coincidence and probably a copying of western music at work there, but the other four thaats won't fit. And the Carnatic Melakarta's 'shuddha' scale is all of the notes as flat as possible as a completely objective way of producing material by intervals.

The Arabic system does not have a way of making things out of 'C scale' into 'Mode of E' either. So I would restrict the term here.

Also I say 'whole tone scale', as it is really rootless.

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JumpingJackFlash wrote:
jancivil wrote:This is a failure to communicate based in words that are really general being taken by you and fmr to be particular things out of a particular understanding. 'The fifth relation', well I know what you mean by your context, but 'fifth relation' has not been defined for every person that would read this.
...
It's hard to make sense of 'as a means of __ Gregorian chants' without it being gone into
I accept your point here on both counts. I apologise for the brevity, but I assumed MadBrain would understand what I meant. More detail can be provided if necessary.

The bottom line however is that the ecclesiastical modes were NOT derived from stacking fifths (or however you want to put it). That's the cart leading the horse there; trying to reverse engineer things and apply our modern thinking to a time when it wasn't applicable.
No, that is NOT any cart to pull the horse or reverse engineering.

I'm not applying 'modern thinking'. It is obvious from "Pythagorean tuning" that 3:2 was extrapolated (if there is some objection to calling that 'the fifth', I don't care) out to 12 iterations where it was noticed it didn't quite make unity and an adustment made. The very basis for scales in much of the world IS here. If you look at 1/4 comma for meantone, that basis is in the diesis 128:125. We do NOT arrive at these things in a vacuum. It looks like to me you aren't considering the statement ("however you want to put it"). "Stacking", multiplying 3:2. I believe it happened. Look at the material, look at Pythagorean tuning.

It will be pointless to debate this. As I said, if 'built of fifths' is untrue, you will need to tell me what is true, how where they 'built'? They were not 'built' from 'Gregorian chant'. If there is reverse engineering afoot it will be to make Gregorian Chant as the foundation, by making that cart pull that horse. BUILT: consider the word. How were the modes BUILT? They derive, I do believe, from the Greek theory. Which means they derive from 'Pythagorean tuning'. Full_stop.

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jancivil wrote:It is obvious from "Pythagorean tuning" that 3:2 was extrapolated (if there is some objection to calling that 'the fifth', I don't care) out to 12 where it was noticed it didn't quite make unity and an adustment made.
Sorry but stating "it is obvious" does not make it a fact.
That is not how modes were created.
jancivil wrote:look at Pythagorean tuning.
Yes, the key word here is tuning. Tuning what?
Pythagorus didn't invent new scales, his system was used for tuning existing ones.

In a nutshell: Greek tetrachords were combined to form Greek modes, from which the ecclesiastical modes evolved from. - That's how they were "created" (actually "evolved" is a more appropriate term), not by stacking fifths.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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Last edited by jancivil on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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