Amin or Cmaj

[Baxter]

Major and minor keys tend to have different emotional qualities. Major keys might be described as being happier, lighter or more "up-beat" while minor keys might be described as darker or sadder. So, ask yourself which of these predominates. If the song is mostly light and happy, then you might call it C maj. If it is mostly sad or dark, then a min might be more appropriate.

This is only some suggestive, subjective stuff. *A minor*, *C major* will be true or not true. There may be some ambiguity in a moment but we have to have an objective statement at some point. And 'happy = major' doesn't have to be true.

MAJOR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI7G5-BNY6k

This is why I stated that these keys "might" be described in these ways. Just as with chord names, there is not always a nice, neat answer to these things, and you sometimes must create your own.

[hersoot]

Of course they sound differently in the context of music vs. isolated notes. Think about it in terms of chord progressions, for example the I, IV, V chords: the minor chords all have minor thirds.

[golemus]

As a clarification, I did talk about scales, not chords


Lets take an example so you know what I mean. I am a DJ and use of course a lot of DJ software and gear. When you buy tunes from Beatport (or other shops), they key of the tune is defined. Sometimes the key recognition is done automatically.

I don't know how the algorithms work but I suspect that the algorithm searches with spectral analysis all the frequencies that are used in the tune melodies. But as Amin and Cmaj has same subset of frequencies, what is the official specific definition of that is the tune in Amin or Cmaj (or some of the 5 other modes).

So as I have understood it is the tonic of the tune that defines which scale/key it is on. But what is the unambious specific definition of a tonic?. I did read the wikipedia article but it really does not give me a good answer. Maybe I should give an example, listen to the tune below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHzxh9fneJ8

I think that this tune is actually in either Hungarian Minor or Double Harmonic scale / key (gypsy/arabic scales). Bassline is mostly note G, but the main/hook melody begins from D and ends to D.

Algorithm of Beatport has defined this tune as Dmin, but I would think more that it is hungarian minor on G, because 1. most of the action seems to be centered on the note G including the bassline.

So which in your opinion is
1. the tonic of this tune
2. the key of this tune
3. the scale of this tune




Here is another example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_LuQvTiVfg


In my opinion this tune is in dorian mode of diatonic scale and the tonic is D. But the notes are the same as in Cmaj or Amin, so what in your opinion is:
1. the tonic of this tune
2. the key of this tune
3. the scale of this tune

Most of DJ-software dont have modes as an alternative, they are either major or minor so which major or minor would this be then...?


Why is this so imporant...?
If you want to do harmonic DJ mixing, you should use the camelot wheel, but in order to use the wheel you need to know that in which sector of the wheel the tune belongs to

[stillshaded]

the easiest most basic way is to look for a major V chord in the minor key. It's very common, and, since it is not diatonic, you will see some accidentals. For instance, a min, you will see G# often, because it is required to make E maj, or E7 which would be the V chord of a min.

Of course, nowadays it's less common to see this because people aren't as concerned with always using leading tones as classical composers were.. so other methods have to be used.

[jancivil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHzxh9fneJ8

I think that this tune is actually in either Hungarian Minor or Double Harmonic scale / key (gypsy/arabic scales). Bassline is mostly note G, but the main/hook melody begins from D and ends to D.

Algorithm of Beatport has defined this tune as Dmin, but I would think more that it is hungarian minor on G, because 1. most of the action seems to be centered on the note G including the bassline.

So which in your opinion is
1. the tonic of this tune

It clearly begins with the tonic = G. That is not an opinion, that's what it is.

[jancivil]

The second video is definitely D Dorian. Because the tonic is obviously what it is. Not a matter of opinion or interpretation it is what it is in solid terms.

[jancivil]

the easiest most basic way is to look for a major V chord in the minor key.

Yeah, you know the OP gave us what it sounds like, which is the right move. "Major V chord in the minor key" isn't relevant to the music presented. It doesn't happen in Dorian. I feel pretty sure in the gypsy mode thing it doesn't happen either. It has no bearing on the type of modal music such as both examples are. (It would apply to *minor* "mode" but in a functional *harmonic* paradigm. Which is not present here.)
One has to be able to suss this by ear. A bunch of paper theory does not perform that task at all.

I think the OP is getting it right by ear but is subject to a lot of *opinion* via the internet.

[hersoot]

As a clarification, I did talk about scales, not chords

IMHO the key cannot be determined without hearing chords. Even in a melody there are implicit harmonies that help determine the key.

[jancivil]

Yeah, that's not going to need to be anybody else's issue. Some music doesn't have chords. There can totally be a melodic emphasis which does not need to be conceptualized in terms of chords that determines tonic. In the gypsy mode thing it was clear from the weight of 5 vis a vis 1 which one is home.

In the dorian thing it is clear to me as I know from modes, it's purely about the set of notes as they relate to the 'tonic'. I did not in any way think of what chord in either case.

[hersoot]

But all music has notes that relate to one another in certain ways. The ear hears those relationships whether the notes are sounded individually or at the same time.

[jancivil]

As a clarification, I did talk about scales, not chords

IMHO the key cannot be determined without hearing chords. Even in a melody there are implicit harmonies that help determine the key.

With for example dorian mode, there is no key. The concern is with the center, 'tonic', I. Key is major or minor, period. There are no sharps nor flats in D dorian, but it is not in C major nor A minor.

So this statement is tied to your limitation, harmonies in the paradigm of key. It turns out to not be true of the OP's two examples at all. So we must rely on understanding where 'tonic' is through the more direct relational basis. There is no functional harmonic paradigm at work in these.

[jancivil]

But all music has notes that relate to one another in certain ways. The ear hears those relationships whether the notes are sounded individually or at the same time.

le sigh. Is it your position that there is some chord in the actual example that would tell you where 'i' is? I'm doing something directly to the point and I'm sure it takes less time than consideration of your side issue 'chords' will result in. I don't know if there even are chords, I did not need there to be, to know what the 'tonic' is. No, the vertical consideration had no bearing at all in determining the tonic.

You could listen rather than keep talking.

[hersoot]

The original topic was about diatonic scales.

[hersoot]

But all music has notes that relate to one another in certain ways. The ear hears those relationships whether the notes are sounded individually or at the same time.

le sigh. Is it your position that there is some chord in the actual example that would tell you where 'i' is? I'm doing something directly to the point and I'm sure it takes less time than consideration of your side issue 'chords' will result in. I don't know if there even are chords, I did not need there to be, to know what the 'tonic' is. No, the vertical consideration had no bearing at all in determining the tonic.

You could listen rather than keep talking.

You are rude.

[kurodo]

But all music has notes that relate to one another in certain ways. The ear hears those relationships whether the notes are sounded individually or at the same time.

le sigh. Is it your position that there is some chord in the actual example that would tell you where 'i' is? I'm doing something directly to the point and I'm sure it takes less time than consideration of your side issue 'chords' will result in. I don't know if there even are chords, I did not need there to be, to know what the 'tonic' is. No, the vertical consideration had no bearing at all in determining the tonic.

You could listen rather than keep talking.

You are rude.

Or perhaps a very talented musician who is offering some very good advice.