Defining rhthym. Are half bars a thing?

[someone called simon]

I'm not at all good with notation, let me preface my question with that.

Years ago I wrote a song, mostly with bars of 8 or 3 beats (I think) in the verses. When I got to the choruses, as i was recording to the click, I realised when repeating the musical phrase that I'd somehow gotten on to the off-beat. When I'd been on the on-beat the first time around. I was a bit baffled until I realised I'd managed to write a chorus with lines of 6.5 beats.

I don't think this is allowed. Does this mean I have to consider that the chorus has a bar of 13, at twice the tempo? the song was about 100bpm, so I have to make it 200 bpm to fit in 13 beats? That seems a ridiculously fast tempo for quite a moderately paced song.

Or is this where the bottom figure in a tempo comes in? Is it likely to be 13/8 (or perhaps a bar each of 6/8 and 7/8) at 100bpm, rather than 13/4 at 200bpm?

Or are half bars allowed? I have no need to communicate this song to others in written notation but i'm curious as to how I'd describe the tempo and time signature. It's not even a weird sounding song...

its here for anyone curious.
http://thedairygiant.bandcamp.com/track ... olate-milk

this has puzzled me for a while so I thought, hey, lets ask...

[BertKoor]

lines of 6.5 beats. I don't think this is allowed.

Yes, it's allowed! Time signatures of x/8 instead of 4/4 or 3/4 are not that common, but 13/8 signature for example is "legal". Some DAWs and notation programs however don't really support it that well. But the theory says it should be possible to have odd time signatures.

[someone called simon]

Thanks, but what i more meant was; can I have a measure like 6.5/8? or 6.5/4? that's what I think is not acceptable. Also, whether 6.5/4 would be equivalent to 13/8?. Actually, I'm not sure I can explain what i mean.

Except when i counted out the chorus of my song in the way that seemed most natural, it went:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 etc.
with no '&' between the 6 and the following 1. Which equates to 6.5 beats per bar...

[BertKoor]

What you describe (1 & 2 & ...) indicates the time signature is in 8th notes instead of quarter notes. Indeed you cannot have halves like 6.5/4, that would be 6.5 * 2 = 13 / 8. Simulary 6.5/8 = 13/16th.

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 etc.

I actually count 11/8 there (one 8th short of 6/4.)

What you'd see very often in odd signatures is that the rhythm/groove is made up of groups of 2 and 3 notes, not a single one omitted at the end. 7/8 is often counted as "One and 2 and 3 and-a One", because that's far more fluent than "3 and 4 One".

[jancivil]

Thanks, but what i more meant was; can I have a measure like 6.5/8? or 6.5/4? that's what I think is not acceptable. Also, whether 6.5/4 would be equivalent to 13/8?

Well, Cubase for one does not *accept* 6 and a half beats, but I think in terms of that all the time. I have a record by L. Shankar where the tala is 6 3/4 beats (and the time is considerably involved beyond that). He has a number of compositions where the time is defined like that. 6 and a half quarters is technically 13/8 and that's what I have to do in Cubase but the thought might not be exactly the same. I mean I still count things in my head a certain way, it depends.

Zappa has "Larry" guest star on "Thirteen" at NYC Paladium where he counts off the time for the audience's benefit as 5/8 + 4/4. 12 123 1, 2, 3, 4...

[jancivil]

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 etc.
with no '&' between the 6 and the following 1. Which equates to 6.5 beats per bar...

That's actually five and a half. There are other strategies to counting that might bring that home to you. So break things down to smaller groups, EG: 6+5; 12 12 12 12 123, etc.
3/4 + 5/8: 1, 2, 3, 12 123...
That isn't saying that it isn't five beats + 'half a beat' (there the '6' is half a beat, lacking the '&' the others have), or whatever conception you like.

Seethelakshmi Talam, 6 3/4 beats might be approached as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 quarters + 3 16ths. Or like 7 but a quarter of a beat chopped off.
But in that one they are doing 'trikala' where the time is going to be indicated at three levels. So, like 6 3/4 "half notes", 6 3/4 "quarters", 6 3/4 "8ths"... actually they went further, just an example.

[someone called simon]

Thanks for responses. Actually, listening to my chorus again, and not just remembering what I thought it was, I should have counted to 7: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 1 &… not 6. So it is 6.5, or 13 beats.

Listening to that Soul Searcher now. I couldn't imagine how to count that, it's beautiful though. This sort of thing calls to mind for me the opinion I've heard that various non-western music was more primitive, as it wasn't harmonically complex. There may be a lack of harmonic progression or complexity perhaps, but there are whole worlds of complexity going on in areas we may not even be aware of, due to our own limitations, which we are also unaware of!

[jancivil]

I spent some time with that thing. They'll cut a segment out of the time plan and recombine it with the remainder later. Like take the 3/4s in itself and repeat it, vamping until ONE comes around when they like to. Also they're doing it slow, medium and fast. I can't totally ascertain, but I believe there's more than three levels of it.

I get the impression that "Larry" hipped Vinnie to the trikala, at least he's doing some very abstruse things during that rendition of Thirteen. He always knows where ONE is, I believe.

Certainly if I have something ridiculous like 29/16 it tends to be 14 and half at the 8th note grid.