What key to double in Secondary Dominants in 1st inversion.

[Touch The Universe]

Say I'm in the key of F major and have a V 6/v to V. The kyes for the V 6/5 should be G B(natural) and D. Should I have it so that I double the G (which is the Fifth scale degree of C) or B (which is the 4th scale degree of F (the root key of the score). The G would make sense since its borrowing the key sig of C, however not in respect to the key of F which the chords are based on -- it would be the second scale degree then...

[fmr]

triple post (stupid icons)

[fmr]

Say I'm in the key of F major and have a V 6/v to V. The kyes for the V 6/5 should be G B(natural) and D. Should I have it so that I double the G (which is the Fifth scale degree of C) or B (which is the 4th scale degree of F (the root key of the score). The G would make sense since its borrowing the key sig of C, however not in respect to the key of F which the chords are based on -- it would be the second scale degree then...

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you going to use a dominat 7th of C? or a dominant 7th of F?

Anyway, if you are using a dominant 7th chord, you should not double any note. If you absolutely must double one, double the root of the chord, and omit the 5h of the chord (in the case of the dominant of F, double the C and omit the G). Forget the degrees of the notes in relation to C if you are in F. If you are modulating to C, then you should take into account what the notes are in C, not in F, of course, because that's where you will land, but then having a dominant 7th of F, which is built over C, to modulate to C is a bad choice. If you are using the dominant 7th of C, which is built over G, then the notes are G, B, D and F, and in case you need to double one, double the G and omit the D.

In the case of the dominat seventh, it doesn't mater which inversion you use (6/5 is the first inversion), the fifth of the chord is the neutral note, therefore the one that you can take out, if you have to. The root of the chord (the dominant) is the one that can always move freely, therefore you can double it without problems. The 3rd and the 7th are the ones that characterize the chord, therefore, are the ones that have to treated with more care, and double them may pose you problems (until the classical period, these had forced movements, that's why duplicate them was abolutely forbidden). Even after that, composers usually resolve these, unless they were using exceptional resolutions (resolve the chord into another degree that's not the tonic). With the advent of the chromaticism, movements started to change, and then, the move of the notes always depended on what chord followed this one, but then, tonality was a constantly moving elastic concept (progressive tonality), and any note could follow any note, depending where you were going. But even then, usually notes moved chromatically, which meant that most of the time the third would move upwards and the seventh downwards, the natural movements for them, anyway.

[fmr]

double post

[Touch The Universe]

Thanks:) First let me clarify before I respond to the rest of what you wrote. I am modulating to C (dominant) from F, in first inversion. So it would be a V of V chord in first inversion. Probably best to write it as V6/V. I am borrowing the key signature of C so the b would become natural. The keys then would be G B(natural) and D. These keys are the V/V, since it is in first inversion, the B (natural) would be the bass note. From what you've written, I would imagine to double the G in this case because it is the dominant in C, even though it would only be the second in the key of F (which isn't a stronger doubling). However, since I'm borrowing the key of C, I should double according to that and not the parent Key of F, correct? From the way I wrote it the first time it looked like I was refering to a 7th in first inversion. Apologies..

[fmr]

Thanks:) First let me clarify before I respond to the rest of what you wrote. I am modulating to C (dominant) from F, in first inversion. So it would be a V of V chord in first inversion. Probably best to write it as V6/V. I am borrowing the key signature of C so the b would become natural. The keys then would be G B(natural) and D. These keys are the V/V, since it is in first inversion, the B (natural) would be the bass note. From what you've written, I would imagine to double the G in this case because it is the dominant in C, even though it would only be the second in the key of F (which isn't a stronger doubling). However, since I'm borrowing the key of C, I should double according to that and not the parent Key of F, correct? From the way I wrote it the first time it looked like I was refering to a 7th in first inversion. Apologies..

Yes, trhe G is the note to double. When modulating, more important than where you come from is where you go to, so, you can think the chord as V7, which is what it is, in fact. As I said, 6/5 shows that it's a first inversion, therefore, the lead tone (the third of the chord) is in the bass. That and the 7th should not be doubled. And the 5th of the chord (D) is neutral, so, the G is the note to be doubled.

[Touch The Universe]

Thanks You answered my question perfectly I just got done with the test and wanted to make sure I didn't make any careless mistakes

Now on a side note, would you happen to know what key range the cello plays when thinking about the piano roll, ie c3-c4, whats the highest and lowest ranges? I need to know because I'm writing a composition project where it will be played by in a live setting for a grade

[fmr]

Thanks You answered my question perfectly I just got done with the test and wanted to make sure I didn't make any careless mistakes

Now on a side note, would you happen to know what key range the cello plays when thinking about the piano roll, ie c3-c4, whats the highest and lowest ranges? I need to know because I'm writing a composition project where it will be played by in a live setting for a grade

The cello is a tenor instrument, which means it plays in the bass region, although it can go quite high. The typical range is between G1 (G below C2) and C3/E3, although, as a soloist, it can go to C4 perfectly, or even higher. But in the orchestra, it usually plays below C3. I'm using the classical convention here, which means C3 is the middle C of the piano.

[Touch The Universe]

Hey, if anyone is interested you can listen to my composition project here. Though the player made a few mistakes while playing ( a quite complex piece mind you), a lot of people said they liked it. I'd call it a success.

https://soundcloud.com/mysticvibe/composition-project