Is naming a classical piece in A..B..E..F.. flat or sharp that important or useful?

[yul]

Hello! Just curious about the nomenclature. I am trying to relate with my contemporary music.

It's like there is an important point that has to be made in relation to A 440 i.e. concert pitch?

Would people really care if the same piece was played up or down by a semitone or if it's in G instead of F?

I guess I would notice to some extent although most of the world wouldn't notice for semi or whole tone.

I believe the most important part of a piece would be the progressions, melodies, harmonies etc..not the pitch? Major and Minor might also be valuable.

Would it be just the way things were back then?

Thanks for enlightening me!

[BertKoor]

Sounds like you've for the first time encountered a piece with the cryptical name like "BWV 1052: Concerto in D Minor". Bach's music is given these names by lack of any other proper name. In the 1950's Wolfgang Schmieder felt the urge to categorise the +/- 1250 works of Bach. He named those pieces by some criteria, and the key happens to be one of them.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis
Some titles in there are not unique, so the number is also relevant for identification.

[jancivil]

Ah, the 'nomenclature' only describes what the thing is.

What's it to ya? You seem to want to negate the 'importance' of what things are, in music.
Why doncha go and get some experience in music, say in different keys and what-not.

Now, this topic may fuel some interesting shit! But it isn't really a useful question in itself.
The answers one could give, and to try and really explain it to you, could take some effort, and you would get nothing from it, it is not an abstraction so the way to knowledge is experiential.
I'm not sure I could explain why I'd decide on eg., "Bb" anyway.

[MadBrain]

Yeah, aside from major/minor, the key isn't relevant, it's just a classification... except for the pieces in the Well-Tempered Clavier, where it's on purpose.

[JumpingJackFlash]

It's like there is an important point that has to be made in relation to A 440 i.e. concert pitch?

Would people really care if the same piece was played up or down by a semitone or if it's in G instead of F?

I guess I would notice to some extent although most of the world wouldn't notice for semi or whole tone.

I believe the most important part of a piece would be the progressions, melodies, harmonies etc..not the pitch? Major and Minor might also be valuable.

Would it be just the way things were back then?

A=440Hz is a pitch standard; it allows all instruments to tune to this common reference point and sound right when played together.

This is different to the key a piece of music is written in (G major, A minor, etc.) - if you're going with A=440Hz, then A is always that pitch in any and all keys.

Would people notice if it's in a different key? - Well, it depends. Real-world instruments can sound noticeably different in different keys due to the physical nature of how the instrument is made and how it's played. On string instruments for example, open strings sound different to stopped strings, so keys that favour open strings will sound different to those that don't.

There's a lot more advanced stuff that might be said regarding temperament, transposing instruments and the history of pitch, but it's probably not likely to be particularly useful to you at this stage.

[yul]

What's it to ya? You seem to want to negate the 'importance' of what things are, in music.
Why doncha go and get some experience in music, say in different keys and what-not.

This really isn't a nice response.

There's a lot more advanced stuff that might be said regarding temperament, transposing instruments and the history of pitch, but it's probably not likely to be particularly useful to you at this stage.

I have been playing music for a long time...

Yeah, aside from major/minor, the key isn't relevant, it's just a classification... except for the pieces in the Well-Tempered Clavier, where it's on purpose.

Thanks this helps!

He named those pieces by some criteria, and the key happens to be one of them.

Thanks!

I do understand the vast tonal differences when playing anything transposed, especially with natural instruments e.g. piano, strings etc. The vibe is indeed much different.

But will a piece in the key of G flat major sound that much different what played in G major? I doubt anyone would notice except when using non-equal tempered tunings as mentioned above.

I would appreciate if anyone thinks there is value in using these terms please explain? Could it be that it only makes sens when considered wholistically and in relation to the many instruments in an orchestra for example. That's the only logical explanation I can find.

[jancivil]

What's it to ya? You seem to want to negate the 'importance' of what things are, in music.
Why doncha go and get some experience in music, say in different keys and what-not.

This really isn't a nice response.

It's an honest response. The language that you chose implies dismissal.
'Is [key] that important or useful?'
"Would people really care?"

I'm not the only one who got the impression providing you with very much would not be directly profitable:

but it's probably not likely to be particularly useful to you at this stage.

I have been playing music for a long time...

I do understand the vast tonal differences when playing anything transposed, especially with natural instruments ...

except when you don't?

I would appreciate if anyone thinks there is value in using these terms please explain?

Maybe you just want to chat?*
"I believe the most important part of a piece would be the progressions, melodies, harmonies etc..not the pitch?"

'value in using these terms' - the terms, again, are only pointers to the thing itself. So as to the value of using them, what else would we do, exactly? Value in using different keys? Well, again it seems like to me one with experience with much music, in various keys would not be posting how you posted.

To me, doing something in Gb as opposed to G (whether we mean actual 'key of' or just centered on) would just be very different. (Even if 'equal temperament' was really true, it won't be the whole of it by a long ways.) I definitely would not consider 'do people care?', 'who would notice', whatever the definition of 'people' even is.

While 'Mozart pitch, Mozart's 'A'' was, what, 432hz so everything *is* different than at 440hz, Mozart's A vs Mozart's Bb @ A=432hz compared with that @ A = 440hz is the same relation.

Why is there an A clarinet and then a Bb clarinet? Why is there a C trumpet and then a Bb trumpet?
*What was your own enquiry before this post?

[yul]

Well you are really not a nice person and I find your responses very rude. Please stop posting here.

I do not want to chat perhaps my question was self-evident or rhetoric (as your answers suggest) and I apologize for that.

You still do not provide anything useful other than I am a silly person for even asking the question or trying to bring validity or arguments.

[Numanoid]

I believe the most important part of a piece would be the progressions, melodies, harmonies etc..not the pitch? Major and Minor might also be valuable.

This is also my thinking

Would it be just the way things were back then?

Based on the instruments that were available way back in the day, I think that may be the case, that certain scales would mean certain instruments had to be brought out, as JanCivil remarks:

Why is there an A clarinet and then a Bb clarinet? Why is there a C trumpet and then a Bb trumpet?

I mean, so the composer would have to take into account the hardware available when thinking about which key to best put a composition in.

[yul]

Thanks a lot!

[JumpingJackFlash]

But will a piece in the key of G flat major sound that much different what played in G major?

As I said earlier, it depends. If you're using a computerised synth in equal temperament, then probably not. But in the real world, then it might matter a lot. A low G is about the lowest note I can project comfortably for example (unless I wake up very early in the morning!). With a Gb however, I can barely sing it and even under ideal conditions, I won't be able to project it as well as a G-natural. The difference is significant.

Any basic guitarist (using standard tuning) is able to play a G chord using 3 open strings. A Gb chord on the other hand is less easy and unlikely to sound as resonant. Similarly, bass guitars, cellos and doubles basses all naturally have open strings on G and D which will also make G major a much more favourable key.

There are countless other examples too. Bb on the clarinet is a "throat note" and won't be as resonant as a B-natural...

So it won't always matter, but there are times when it might make a noticeable difference. It depends what/who the music is written for.

It might also be noted that equal temperament wasn't standardised until the twentieth century. And in earlier systems, there would obviously be a much greater difference between the different keys. Also, in earlier centuries, instruments weren't as sophisticated and were often limited to a fairly narrow range of keys. So when Bach or Mozart wrote a concerto (or whatever) in a certain key, it wasn't an arbitrary choice, they had good reasons for doing so.... We could go off on a tangent here about Historically Informed Performance, something which has been hotly and extensively debated and discussed in certain circles for some time now. Eg. Do you want to construct as historically accurate a performance as possible or adapt it for modern times? (This is rhetorical, if you're interested in this there is a wealth of material out there on the subject covering a broad range of perspectives).

Another issue is tuning, as you mentioned. A=440Hz is also a relatively recent thing in music history. Before this there would be different standards over time and from one place to another. There have been several cases where a composer writes something for one situation and has to alter it significantly when they wish to play it again somewhere else. Again, a bit topic... But suffice to say, the answer to the question "is it that important or useful" is yes, it can be both, but as with all things, it depends on what your goal is and how much you're willing to do to get there.

[Numanoid]

Also, in earlier centuries, instruments weren't as sophisticated and were often limited to a fairly narrow range of keys. So when Bach or Mozart wrote a concerto (or whatever) in a certain key, it wasn't an arbitrary choice, they had good reasons for doing so.

Can a modern version of that be like John Cage's "Sonata II For Prepared Piano"

I mean, he then denotes in the title of the composition that a certain instrumenation has to be deployed, in that regard a prepared piano

Like Bach or Beethoven would denote that one of their compositions should be played in the key of C or D ?

[woggle]

Well you are really not a nice person and I find your responses very rude. Please stop posting here.

I do not want to chat perhaps my question was self-evident or rhetoric (as your answers suggest) and I apologize for that.

You still do not provide anything useful other than I am a silly person for even asking the question or trying to bring validity or arguments.

There is a very useful block function on KVR where you can stop seeing posts from people who are rude. All you have to do is click on the name of the person you'd like to avoid and then add them as a "foe" - which is a bit over dramatic but gets the job done.

[fmr]

If you are referring to classical music, my POV is yes, it matters a lot. Things have to be regarded in several perspectives, but in all of them the key of the piece is a very important factor.

As JJF pointed, acoustic instruments have some tonalities where they sound better, and others where they sound weak. Depending on the tonality, there could even be passages that are very hard to play or even impossible to play. Not all instruments are like the piano, where you have the keys, and you can play whatever asked (even there, depending on the difficulty of the piece, pieces like the concertos could be hard or even impossible to transpose).

The older the instruments are, the more it is important to respect the key of the pieces that were written for them. A alto recorder, for example, can play comfortably in F Major, or in Bb Major, or G minor, C Major, but it would be very problematic or even impossible to play something in F #. The natural trumpet plays comfortably in D, but if you lower the piece to C #, things would be basically impossible to play (and would sound really bad). The modern French Horn plays comfortably in F, or i C, but it is more problematic playing in F# or C #, although it is very versatile. The older natural horns were tuned according to the piece, and the player had extensions to use in the tube to tune the horn in whatever key it's necessary - of course, modulations to keys far from the natural one were impossible.

If you look at the pieces, you will see that when composers write for orchestra, keys with more than four accidents are very rare. The same happens with pieces for strings. But for the piano, or any keyboard, you basically can write in whatever key you want (except the old pipe organ, which wasn't tuned in equal temperament, and of course you can't tune it any way you want).

But there is another aspect to be taken into consideration. Since the beginning of the XXth century, composers tarted to write pieces that are no longer tonal. How would you manage to transpose these? Theoretically, you can, of course, but often the sound aggregates are thought to sound in a particular manner, and if you do not play what is there, you will no longer play the piece. So, again, it is important to play what is written, and not "ad libitum".

The tuning is another matter. Tuning very much depends on the instruments you have. If you are playing with a piano, for example, and that piano is tuned at 445, or 450, the entire ensemble has to tune accordingly. The A = 440 is a reference, but in real life, there are many cases where it is used a different reference, usually a little higher, to make the ensembles sound brighter. Anyway, if you have an instrument that has a fixed tone, like the piano, as I said, you have to tune everything after it. If not, you can tune around whatever you want, but usually using an A around 435/445 doesn't make things sound very different. In the baroque, the tuning was considerably lower (A = circa 415, which means that in real terms music sounded a semi-tone lower). But that, again isn't important, because the instruments were built to sound accordingly.

Transposition usually only happens in singer recitals, where the singer is soloing, accompanied only by a piano. In these cases, sometimes, the singer asks the pianist to play a semi-tone lower or even a whole tone lower, to be more comfortable.

To sum it up: Yes, the key matters, it is not irrelevant, and pieces are supposed to be played as they were written. Basically, as others said, keys were not chosen just because: usually there is a reason, and an important one. Add to all this that often composers gave special meanings to some keys - again, they choose them because of the particular "colour" of that key.

[jancivil]

I do not want to chat perhaps my question was self-evident or rhetoric (as your answers suggest) and I apologize for that.

You still do not provide anything useful other than I am a silly person for even asking the question or trying to bring validity or arguments.

No, I asked you a couple of questions that, if you did some research on it, you would be enlightened about this: what is the A clarinet vs the Bb clarinet about? They seem so close to you, why do we have both, for centuries now? I said to you 'even if equal temperament was true, it wouldn't be the whole of it by a long ways'. Food for thought, if you want it.

I took the time to do that and I put some thought into it. You tried to bring what, again?

Putting a rhetorical question to us does seem counterproductive. that's what it looks like. I do think someone willing to embark on a real quest will have considered all the weight of composers in various centuries choosing keys, and then considered that since we've had a so-called equal temperament for generations - the entire point of which is to open up 12 major and 12 minor keys to be less dodgy - could have done something, googled something and done some kind of inquiry. My really genuine response to that this wasn't. It's a deeply stupid post and you are a silly person for wasting people's time by it.

One may want to provide insight into this for other readers, TS for you.
Anyway, sorry if you got the bad feel, my expectation of you was too much, my fault.