KVR Audio

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:49 am

key is monumentally important. humans perceive sound and music on an absolute scale . lower register keys "sound" different from higher . and people WILL notice, they just won't know exactly what is going on. something will just be "off". same goes for standard tuning. I would outlaw and criminalize all non-standard tuned music if I could. it's lethal

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:04 am

jancivil wrote:Anyway, sorry if you got the bad feel, my expectation of you was too much, my fault.

The whole OP question is stupid as hell.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:08 am

- looks like a rhetorical question, struck me as another clueless arrogant.
I expect to treat people like they're all grown up.
He's from Canada? Didn't get my American "What's it to ya", sense of humor, nah.

Some are in the mood to provide all the usual Knowledge Base type material, I wasn't.
Food for thought? Oh hell no, gotta be spoon fed, Served Onna Silver Platter.
Guy tells ya not to post, that's revealing.

Sorry people, I'm old, I'm like this. Block me, why not.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:33 pm

zethus909 wrote: I would outlaw and criminalize all non-standard tuned music if I could. it's lethal

You would "outlaw and criminalize" all music which didn't sound the way you expect(ed) it to? Wow...

A=440Hz was not standardised until 1939 and in reality, there are number of reasons why this might not be the most appropriate tuning. Trying to play early music using this modern reference point opens up whole cans of worms... fmr mentioned "Baroque pitch" for example which is incidentally a generalisation; a number of different pitch standards were in use simultaneously. In some cases, you even have situations where different instruments in the same ensemble used different pitch standards (which is similar, but not identical to the notion of transposed instruments). - That's why some Baroque scores have (seemingly) very weird transpositions and why there are now modern editions available in more than one key. It's not just a simple matter of retuning and/or transposing everything. Sometime's you'll end up with something that is unplayable on modern instruments (or out of a singer's vocal range) and, when you also take into account the fact that music of this time was not in equal temperament, if you're not careful you'll end up with something that's significantly different from the original piece.

But if you want to ban everything that you're not immediately comfortable with...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:48 pm

my sky is red wrote: I would outlaw and criminalize all non-standard tuned music if I could. it's lethal

JumpingJackFlash wrote: You would "outlaw and criminalize" all music which didn't sound the way you expect(ed) it to?

Maybe it's a joke?

What does that even mean 'standard tuning'?

fantastic planet wrote:humans perceive sound and music on an absolute scale

Citation, please.

Wait, what does 'on an absolute scale' even mean? Most people do not have absolute pitch.

ANYWAY, European orchestras have, a lotta them moved up to A=442 now.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:58 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote: ban everything that you're not immediately comfortable with...

hey... there's a plan

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:06 am

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
yul wrote:But will a piece in the key of G flat major sound that much different what played in G major?
other examples... Bb on the clarinet is a "throat note" and won't be as resonant as a B-natural...

There are three registers on a clarinet: Chalumeau, Throat, and Clarion. Throat register is called that as refers to the throat of the instrument. Typical to see 'throaty' tone written about it.
The register is usually said to be from G (inside the staff G) to Bb. NB: this is the written note we're referencing. The clarinet is a transposing instrument; these actual pitches are F to G#/Ab on a Bb clarinet, E to G on an A clarinet*.

The throat register additionally is where the fewest keys need be held down to produce the given pitch. The first few notes of the Clarion register are more problematic, for fingering and for making the notes speak, particularly coming out of the Throat register quickly.
(*: Also note that on a Boehm-system clarinet, Throat register starts a semitone lower than the Albert system or the Öhler system.)
(**: Transposing instruments works like this: the Bb instrument's Bb is the fundament of the instrument and is written as C, etc. IE: music in Bb for a Bb instrument is no sharps/flats in the key signature.)

So, is the Bb clarinet different in sound than the A clarinet? It must be, although whether 'people will notice' is another question. Typical to see written 'The A has a darker tone.'.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:53 am

jancivil wrote:There are three registers on a clarinet...

Yeah, I've played it for several decades thanks.

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:33 am

it's an absolute range of hearing perceptiveness. if a human listens to a song in Bb but then listens to the same song but in G, the human doesn't re-adjust the size of its eardrum to hear the song in some "relative" similar way. the song is completely different then, and will affect the animal ( human ) differently. humans are animals and music is just semi-sophisticated animal sounds

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:27 am

zethus909 wrote:it's an absolute range of hearing perceptiveness. if a human listens to a song in Bb but then listens to the same song but in G, the human doesn't re-adjust the size of its eardrum to hear the song in some "relative" similar way. the song is completely different then, and will affect the animal ( human ) differently. humans are animals and music is just semi-sophisticated animal sounds

We are not talking "songs", since this is usually rather primary and rudimentary music, therefore, no subtleties. Even then, depending on how it is written, the bass, for example, may become problematic if you transpose it down a minor third.

What we are talking here is orchestral pieces, with complex arrangements, where you have like ensembles of 70 + instruments playing, all of them with their idiosyncrasies. You seem to always think within a very limited universe of sounds and music, which is what you happen to know. Maybe you should broader your horizons, before coming up with such statements.

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:20 am

no clue what ur talkin about or how it relates to what I am saying . also don't get why ur insulting my intelligence in a baseless way again

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:04 am

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
jancivil wrote:There are three registers on a clarinet...
Yeah, I've played it for several decades thanks.

The post wasn't specific for you. I was actually agreeing with you. but no, be disagreeable and snide out of all proportionality.

I'm glad you're gone.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:18 am

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:42 am

So I would prefer talking about the actual, what is different about music as manifested at a different level. In the concrete. I think if you reduce it to an extreme the reality of it is clear.
Ratchet it up to where 'normal' sounds are very high and small. Slack it down to where things are blobby and less distinct.

So now we can look at a statement, even if it's based in (so-called) equal temperament, that music is not different at different levels. It may not be widely noticed as such, especially in small transpositions, but it has to have been changed materially.
(The other thing is, there is no such thing as equal temperament in reality. If you tuned a piano (has this been tested?) using only the math, it would be horrible, it's not even feasible. Piano tuning is stretch tuning. Always. This is something I have investigated.)

The C trumpet is made to be brighter than the Bb trumpet. The Bb clarinet is brighter than the A clarinet. These instruments have overtone characteristics. Let's stay with the clarinet for a moment. It's characteristic lies in the perfect 12th. Harmonic #3. This is what we deal with in its construction and its mechanics of note production.

Any instrument has problems to be solved, has a reality. So what happens when it's decided, by whom I don't know, to tune up a whole tone? All of the instruments are now tuning up, which of the instruments will undergo a design change? At what point.

But when we write for instruments that are designed with a fundamental 'Bb', 'Eb', we are not writing for a pure 12-tone equal world. Dodecaphony as a practice out of the practice of obtaining more and more of the full chromatic notwithstanding.

It used to be that 'key' was given more due in orchestral praxis. The music of Wagner, say, while more chromatic than ever, is still functioning by the common practice period paradigms.
Schönberg ultimately decided to bolt from it; the real logical outcome of '12 equal to the octave' would be dodecaphonism. But we're never rid of the harmonic series (not even in electronics).

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:05 am

zethus909 wrote:no clue what ur talkin about

Really???

Is naming a classical piece in A..B..E..F.. flat or sharp that important or useful?