I want my old limiter back (or: tools don't live for an eternity)

[Aleksey Vaneev]

From the Elephant User Guide: "The "Trans Time" knob adjusts transient's duration. A lower time value usually sounds "harsher", but provides a higher loudness boost. Higher time values sound smoother, retain transients better, and provide lower overall loudness boosts. Since this parameter affects plug-in's internal signal path, quick changes made to this parameter produce "stuttering" sound. It is suggested that you use the keyboard entry when changing this parameter. This parameter (if available for the selected algorithm) also controls limiter's look-ahead time."

Compyfox, please do a fact-check prior to coming to quick conclusions.

[DevonB]

I didn't see ozone mentioned, it's probably lacking something that I missed maybe?

That was going to be my very question; did you check out Ozone? It's far more than just a limiter, but it has been my 'go-to' limiter for years now. MPL-1 I never liked all that much, and Torben and I had several 'discussions' about it and wanting to show me 'visually' that it didn't change things. My ears told me different, and that's all that matters.

Ozone, I can typically be showing +6dB on the master, slamming the ever loving life out of it, set Ozone to -0.3dB brickwall, and magic; the thump comes through from the monster kick drum, and I cannot tell the difference. MPL-1, I couldn't push that hard. In fact, nothing else I've tried could I push that hard and have it still sound like the unaffected source material I was pushing through.

Xenon, excellent as well. Check it out. It supports the K metering system you're used to as well, which is good for you. I still prefer Ozone, but Ozone is an entire suite of plug-ins too, and I think Ozone is still a bit more 'transparent' but not by much. I would also recommend Vienna Suite, but probably out of the price range you're willing to spend.

Devon

[DevonB]

Compyfox, please do a fact-check prior to coming to quick conclusions.

This is a forum, not a 'print publication.' Posting to the forum is actually a good way to 'check your facts', because usually someone will come along and either validate your findings or prove you wrong. I find nothing wrong with that. It's a good way to learn. Not everyone is an 'expert' or has the ability to ask an 'expert' before they post. I also find the chastizing needless though, unless he continues to post misleading facts after he's been told. From what I know of Compyfox, I doubt he would continue.

But imagine if people only posted thoughts on forums only after they asked the developer? Think you're busy now? Careful for what you wish for.

Devon

[Compyfox]

The IK BWL has always been a good choice imho. I don't understand the pumping part.......I'll play with it later on.

It starts to pump if pressed hard (beyond 5dB to 7dB), and starts to overshot if the DA preserving mode isn't activated. Try it with a busy pop/rock production. It's really made for smaller values only. Prior to Brickwall, a clipper or compressor (gain staged material), then the limiter with slight boost only.

But like I said I'm not a clipper->limiter or comp->limtier guy. Especially not while working with the K-System or DR-Metering. EBU R128 is a bit too much for music stuff for the time being (it's great for DVDs/HD-material, TV, and prepared broadcast material - no doubt).

Though this is another topic.

I didn't see ozone mentioned, it's probably lacking something that I missed maybe?

Not at all, but I never really liked Ozone. Actually, I moved away from izotope completely (yes, even the free vinyl), even though I do like the RX concept (but only the declipper).

Ozone is a complete suite, and you can mess up a lot with it. I wonder why it's still so popular. Maybe it's because like DevonB said: slap it on, be happy. Never really liked it (even GUI wise) - just didn't click with me.

I look for a very versatile and clean limiter (only) however.



Maybe I take a look at Xenon again, but don't quote me on that. But it's also very pricey for what it does (why does a "standard" limiter has to cost as much?!)

Compyfox, please do a fact-check prior to coming to quick conclusions.

See Aleksey, and this is the reason why Voxengo stuff doesn't click with me: agressive advertising, you try to constantly correct others and state how awesome your stuff is compared to the competition. Yet your plugins are drowned out in hidden, crazy tagged features or not clear wording in the manual.

I can take another look at it with the look ahead mode. If it's "look ahead", it should be called that way.

Having an RMS respond to 2ms and claiming others "do the same" is also nonsense IMO. Quasi PPMs are not suitable for mastering purposes! 300ms or even 600ms (K-Metering) are more suitable if we talk average level - digital peak is a different issue. So yes, the meter IS off in this case.

I also remember not seeing Inter Sample Peak indication? Something that is really important in this case. So I still need another metering tool to check. Again, you'll probably correct me on this - as with the thing that TLs distorts the midrange (which I don't have the impression - but I'm not in the mood seeing a plot battle in this thread).


I had it with you with SPAN and a handful of new plugin ideas (which you brushed off as "Nobody would be interested"). Your tools could vastly improve on the configuration side. But sometimes I get the feeling you only want to sell stuff, and be better than others.

While this is a good thing, it doesn't help sales. I for example are not the slightest impressed with that.


I will take another look at it, I can look into the manual. But if I want to test anything, stuff needs to be straight forward and easily understandable. Else it hits the trashbin.

Pro-L is easily understandable, Slate FG-X was on second look. Barricade - well, everyting out in the open. Even Brickwall Limiter from IKM is understandable. Elephant - I'd need to go through the whole manual first before I can test that thing?

Well, if you have the time for such things if you do a plugin shootout, definitely respect.



Anyway... got to get back behind the mixing console.

[alteregoxxx]

The IK BWL has always been a good choice imho. I don't understand the pumping part.......I'll play with it later on.

It starts to pump if pressed hard (beyond 5dB to 7dB)

I think you're talking about the "clean" algo because "Advanced" algos don't pump...
..furthermore...i am a freeware addicted and i had a great time with TLs Maximizer,Aradaz Maximizer,Buzzrommaximizer, all great pieces of code, but you can't really compare them with the IK limiter...push them a bit and listen to the stereo image...really really big differences...on the other hand the RMS levels you can reach with IK are impossible with TLs and Buzzroom; Aradaz can, but really starts to sound squashed (read release behaviour)...
I've tried almost all the payware existing maximizers (Elephant, MPL, Brainworks, Psp Xenon etc) and the IK is for sure one of the best, IMHO, i like it more than those i've listed here

[Aleksey Vaneev]

See Aleksey, and this is the reason why Voxengo stuff doesn't click with me: agressive advertising, you try to constantly correct others and state how awesome your stuff is compared to the competition. Yet your plugins are drowned out in hidden, crazy tagged features or not clear wording in the manual.

Well, thanks for sharing your perception of my business practices' outlook. I never tried to make my advertising "aggressive". What do you find aggressive about it? Correcting others about my products is important, because this cures misconceptions.

I can take another look at it with the look ahead mode. If it's "look ahead", it should be called that way.

It can't be called look-ahead, because it controls transient duration - duration of limiter going from no compression to full compression. This also controls the look-ahead time, in parallel. Two things in one.

Having an RMS respond to 2ms and claiming others "do the same" is also nonsense IMO. Quasi PPMs are not suitable for mastering purposes! 300ms or even 600ms (K-Metering) are more suitable if we talk average level - digital peak is a different issue. So yes, the meter IS off in this case.

Please re-read what I've written. You can configure it to 300 and 600 ms, but by default it is set to 2ms in Voxengo plug-ins while other plug-in producers usually have it fixed to 50ms and more. K-metering is fixed to 600ms in Voxengo Elephant.

I also remember not seeing Inter Sample Peak indication?

Why bother about intersample peak indication if you set a limiter to the 4x oversamplimg mode when it limits intersample overs? It's not a practical function if you look at it that way.

I had it with you with SPAN and a handful of new plugin ideas (which you brushed off as "Nobody would be interested"). Your tools could vastly improve on the configuration side. But sometimes I get the feeling you only want to sell stuff, and be better than others. While this is a good thing, it doesn't help sales. I for example are not the slightest impressed with that.

So, you want me to starve following your suggestions that are probably interesting to 0.1% of users? I do listen to user suggestions - there are numerous evidences I do. But I do not implement every single idea out there, because not every idea is needed to many users, hence such idea can't be a competing factor at all. If you feel you are potent to direct a plug-in production, please invest your money and hire a programmer.

Pro-L is easily understandable, Slate FG-X was on second look. Barricade - well, everyting out in the open. Even Brickwall Limiter from IKM is understandable. Elephant - I'd need to go through the whole manual first before I can test that thing?

Well, if you have the time for such things if you do a plugin shootout, definitely respect.

Of course, I look at the competition and in most cases clearly see what's strong and what's weak in their products. But reality is that, you can never have all the best things in the same product. Price is also a very important factor to a fair user.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

But imagine if people only posted thoughts on forums only after they asked the developer? Think you're busy now? Careful for what you wish for.

This wasn't my idea. If Compyfox wrote "Voxengo Elephant is complete sh%t" I would not even bother posting anything, but he started comparing it to other limiters and obviously related his misconceptions to everyone on this forum. So, I had to correct him - I had no other intention. No need to ask my consent to post, but I also have the right to participate.

[DevonB]

Ozone is a complete suite, and you can mess up a lot with it. I wonder why it's still so popular. Maybe it's because like DevonB said: slap it on, be happy. Never really liked it (even GUI wise) - just didn't click with me.

I look for a very versatile and clean limiter (only) however.

Then I honestly think you should at least give Ozone 4 a shot again if you want something clean and transparent.

Mess up with it? Absolutely. When it comes to a mastering suite, you want just a smidge of things like the exciter, the stereo widener, the 'master' reverb, etc. Go heavy-handed, and it'll sound terrible.

Personally, I like the interface. I have access to six plug-ins immediately, and by clicking on the 6 Actiave buttons for each effect, it turns them on or off. I generally only use the limiter, and keep everything else off.

I'd be happy to compare other products back to back with it, especially 'busy' mixes, but nothing sat so cleanly and smooth than Ozone for me. What was very important to me is to get a powerful kick drum to not fall flat on its face when the limiter gets hit hard, and not distort/color as well. Ozone does that and has done it well for years.

I'd say forget about the interface, it's about the sound, not how much you like/dislike the GUI. Work with it for 15 minutes and listen with your ears. Do not load in any presets, turn off all the other effects, and just work
with the Loudness Maximizer section. Set Margin dB to -0.3dB, fiddle with the Threshold, but push it up high like -6dB or higher, set Character to what floats your boat (generally Fast And Loud for me) and mode to Intelligent or Intelligent II. I've always been amazed on how much the mix just held together for me.

And remember, you were the one looking for a replacement for your beloved plugins. Give it an honest shot. I'd be surprised if you didn't like it for what you're after.

Devon

[DevonB]

But imagine if people only posted thoughts on forums only after they asked the developer? Think you're busy now? Careful for what you wish for.

This wasn't my idea. If Compyfox wrote "Voxengo Elephant is complete sh%t" I would not even bother posting anything, but he started comparing it to other limiters and obviously related his misconceptions to everyone on this forum. So, I had to correct him - I had no other intention. No need to ask my consent to post, but I also have the right to participate.

I see nothing wrong in correcting others. As the developer of the product and having the deep knowledge of said product, I certainly see it as your right to 'set the record straight'. But it's the additional commentary you interject with that comes off rude and condesending; stick with the facts.

As someone who is selling not only their products, but themselves, every time they post, it be better to take great care in commentary and take the higher road. But it's your business; you run it as you see fit. That is just my opinion as a customer and how I would want to be treated. There are several vendors on here, including yourself, that I have completely looked over for years because I don't want to be treated the way you treat your customers or potential customers.

Devon

[airon]

I work mostly in post production now, but have mastered productions, mixed songs and worked on quite a bit of promotional material(ads). Limiters are thus a beast I encounter and work with often.

Right off the bat, my favorite for simplicity of setup(ignoring the Waves stuff) for me is the FabFilter Pro-L.

The UI of Voxengo Elephant is much harder to get in to. It is very flexible in what it can do which I love, but I pretty much ignore its metering. It simply seemed off to me, so I use plugins or external hardware. Digital Peak, Truepeak(from EBU R128), maybe PPM(10ms integration), RMS (400-600 ms), EBU R128(k-weighted RMS of 400 ms) are very relevant for finding out whether the MP3 will clip more easily, material is within broadcast specs and gives you a good idea of how loud the material is if you need to check. What advantage does 2ms integration time have ? I am curious. I haven't heard of that before. Is it used in broadcasting anywhere or does it have other advantages ?

Elephant for me is highly useful for its various flavours I can dial in. The fact that transient time is kind of the lookahead of the plugin reveals itself if you've used a host that supports dynamically changing delay compensation like Reaper. ReaComp and ReaGate have a configurable lookahead and it crackles like hell if you shift that around during playback. The manual of Elephant warns about this, but in all the plugin could do with less ambiguity, i.e. improvements, so that people, who have never used any Voxengo plugins before, can explore its potential much more quickly than they can right now. -edit- Your English writing skills reveal some traits of your native language, which I assume is Russion or Ukraine? Your code is great and people go for the plugins because of that. I know I did and still do. And we should remember the fact that many of us may use the English language here in this forum in a way that seems strange to some. Be a little forgiving. You'd have to be if I tried to write in Russian.

Ok, Pro-L. I tested this one in a number of situations and sources. Promotional material requires some rather slam-bang treatment of material here in Germany. No EBU R128 here yet.

Pro-L fared very well on speech, instruments(with editing) and music(with lots of EQ tuning pre-limiter). It usually took me no more than a minute to dial in settings that worked.

Elephant took me a lot longer to fully grasp and use. I usually use it in a more sparing manner, unless I want to generate a certain sound. I love using this on some vocal sources when mixing music productions for example. It's just that configurable with a wide pallete of pump/breathe to transparent to gnarly. I even use an oversampled clipper on sound effects sometimes. Great stuff . Takes more time, usually worth it.

For speed of setup and its behaviour for more extreme gain reduction, I'd go with the Pro-L, which I'm probably going to buy if I get a couple of more jobs that really needs speed of setup and general easy of use. I already own Elephant.

Alekesey, I found the tooltips and large pop-up text boxes in Pro-L very helpful when I first used the plugin. Maybe that's a good idea for Elephant or some of the more complex functions in some of the knobs. Less manual study. I once asked you about how to increase the input gain while decreasing the output gain at the same time, and you told me. A tooltip system with (r-click to inrease input gain and decrease output gain) or (right-click to inversely affect the output gain) as a tooltip on the input gain knob of elephant would have solved that for me instantly and made much more people aware of it as well. The user learns best when using the plugin. That has been my experience.

In terms of the metering not being as configurable as one would like, I have to agree with you, Compyfox. I do like the visual feedback on how the peaks are affected though. Advanced settings are probably a compromise in size, so the visual stuff isn't covered up too much while you mess with the settings. You should definitely voice your concerns to the FabFilter guys as well.

For easy to configure brickwall limiting, I choose Pro-L. For more creative limiting I'll go for both Pro-L and Elephant.

I only talk about these two limiters, because I've used them a lot in recent days. Xenon, FXG.... I'm tired of limiters really, and Pro-L is just about all I want to deal with in addition to Elephant or anything simple. I like Elephant so much because it's much more than a brickwall limiter for my purposes. It's a very veratile dynamics tool that takes time to setup. Pro-L is a stop sign with easy controls and great sound. End of ramble.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

airon, thanks for your comment. There was a tooltip about inverse linking available on the In Gain knob in Elephant - not sure what made you think it wasn't there. The metering ballistics are configurable in each Voxengo plug-in: you may want a higher value for mastering, and a more instant one for mixing. The future update to Elephant will feature the "flat level meter look" - without that blocky structure.

[airon]

The tooltip at the bottom. I think this is the first time I actually looked at it when checking the knob. I do have one idea to make it easier for folks who overlook the current tooltips, like I did . Highlight them more and highlight the control. Or use baloons/boxes that pop up like Pro-L as a introduction mode instead. Turn that off and they pop up at the bottom.

Funny really. I was so caught up in using all the controls in the plugin that I never bothered to look straight down. Ever. Weird.

[tman2k (Meathook Audio)]

Compy,

Did you try out LoudMax at all? It is free, and from what I have seen, seems to work pretty well!

[Aleksey Vaneev]

The tooltip at the bottom. I think this is the first time I actually looked at it when checking the knob. I do have one idea to make it easier for folks who overlook the current tooltips, like I did . Highlight them more and highlight the control. Or use baloons/boxes that pop up like Pro-L as a introduction mode instead. Turn that off and they pop up at the bottom.

Funny really. I was so caught up in using all the controls in the plugin that I never bothered to look straight down. Ever. Weird.

Well, that's an excellent example of the reason why a plug-in can't have all the best things in one. I bet many users dislike popping hint windows at the first glance, even if they can be hidden later. And like yourself some users may not even pay attention to the hintline.

[@midnight]

+1 LoudMax, for free it's hard to beat, although I actually get much louder using Ozone 4, because LoudMax actually stops limiting once the distortion reaches an audible amount, it's designed to be transparent and clean. You can push the Ozone limiter harder, it will start to distort but it tends to distort in a sort of analog-sounding way (on Intelligent II mode) and you'll get a few extra db of loudness.