Low latency audio in Android 4 (Ice Cream Sandwich)

[penguinfromdeep]

Well, Ive given the info on what I do to get low latency audio on Android. You can all carry on saying how its not possible now. Im out

Well I think you shouldn't do anything to get low latency, it should be automatic no?

[svrc]

Well I think you shouldn't do anything to get low latency, it should be automatic no?[/quote]

+1

[SingleCell]

Unfortunately it seems like we Android fans are screwed as far as audio apps go. Sure, I have Caustic and any other decent music making app on the Market but for real-time playing- forget it. I don't think Google considers it important enough. We get stylus support with ICS (stylus support FFS) but not any improvement on the audio side.

I think Google goes for bang for the buck rather than important niche issues. For us this is a big deal, but Google have already said that this isn't an easy problem to fix. So for the time it would take their engineers to fix this, they could instead create 5 new things they can add to a press release to wow the average consumer. Don't get me wrong, I think this is important and I share your rage ... I'm just trying to think like a Googler.

I'm not holding my breath for real-time. I'm adding better sequencing features to Caustic in the next release to help people understand it's more about sequencing than live. The keyboards will stick around for designing sounds, but I'm sick of bad market comments saying I should fix the latency. Caustic runs at 5ms internally and could even go lower, but that's not what you hear.

And I'll agree with UltraJV here, the lowest latency and snappiest response I've seen to date on Android is with CyanogenMOD and overclocked devices. Why other (and stock) ROMs don't do as well, I've never looked into. Makes you wonder if we couldn't get the CM team to have a good look at the issue and what can be done, they're probably the best chance we have at fixing this. With a stock ROM on my NookColor I had 90ms. With CM7, I'm getting 42ms. Still not real-time, but getting closer...

[Brian @ IK Multimedia]

I have posted this before but despite that, there are still people who think Android cant do low latency. Nothing needs fixing except perception. It can and does do low latency :


by brianbane » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

"We've actually begun an initial foray into Android development recently, completing some successful tests of low-latency audio. It will still be several months away, but we should present some Android offerings in the future"

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= 10&t=553

This was from a preliminary test. Subsequent tests apparently did not produced the same level of optimism.

[SingleCell]

I have posted this before but despite that, there are still people who think Android cant do low latency. Nothing needs fixing except perception. It can and does do low latency :


by brianbane » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

"We've actually begun an initial foray into Android development recently, completing some successful tests of low-latency audio. It will still be several months away, but we should present some Android offerings in the future"

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= 10&t=553

This was from a preliminary test. Subsequent tests apparently did not produced the same level of optimism.

Ah! thanks for this Brian. Sad to hear you haven't found the holy grail, but I appreciate you being honest about it.

[RPH]

The only enjoyable realtime experience I have on my Android devices is with theramin style instruments like "Plasma sound" or guitar apps like "Robotic Guitarist". Latency is still crap, but better then it was before with older versions of Android. I do think there is "some" improvement.

For more serious musicmaking i always sequence, so latency isn't a problem there. People whining at the marketplace about latency in sequencing apps shouldn't be taken seriously SingleCell.

As for google, they should take note that popular DJs / producers using iPads instead of Android tablets is a loss for them as a business. They are now promoting iPads for free basicly ( more bucks for Apple ).
That's how Google should be approached about this problem, fixing the problem makes them more money..a fine investment..whatever. Not just to make a few musicgeeks happy.

Cheers,
Rob.

[penguinfromdeep]

As for google, they should take note that popular DJs / producers using iPads instead of Android tablets is a loss for them as a business. They are now promoting iPads for free basicly ( more bucks for Apple ).
That's how Google should be approached about this problem, fixing the problem makes them more money..a fine investment..whatever. Not just to make a few musicgeeks happy.

This is difficult since DJs and Live acts have used Apple laptops almost exclusively now for a long time.. At least this is what I've noticed. Always that shining Apple logo there in the dark club midst the pounding beats and the flashing strobos. So they naturally buy also the Ipads then ..

[polaris20]

Why should you have to root a device, or buy a special one, just to be able to do audio? That's absurd. The iPad and iPhone are very useful, fun devices for all sorts of audio applications; guitar modeling (Amplitube, AmpKit), DAW's, synths, samplers, etc.

You shouldn't dismiss mobile devices just because "you have a serious DAW at home". Is a camera phone a useless toy because you have a $3000 dSLR at home? No. Is the video camera capability useless because you've got a 3-chip Canon sitting at home? No. Are the games useless because you've got a $3000 gaming computer at home? No.

Android has really matured, especially as shown by ICS 4.0. The Galaxy Nexus is a beautiful phone. It's a shame they're ignoring this niche, because I think it'd be great for that.

Since Android is based on Linux, which has a low latency kernel available, it'd be nice to have that option for people wishing to have that capability.

[nikolatesla20]

It's because android was based off Linux, which for a long time also had crappy sound support too

-nik

[ghettosynth]

...

[The Safe Places]

I'm sorry for necro'ing this thread, but really, isn't modding an Android device for low latency worth looking into? Sure, it should be there by itself with Google doing that work, but till then, shouldn't try to get more out of what we are given? If low latency is attainable this way, the wait would really be over, I think - I'd jump at it. If anyone has any information in this regard, please share it.

[SingleCell]

I'm sorry for necro'ing this thread, but really, isn't modding an Android device for low latency worth looking into? Sure, it should be there by itself with Google doing that work, but till then, shouldn't try to get more out of what we are given? If low latency is attainable this way, the wait would really be over, I think - I'd jump at it. If anyone has any information in this regard, please share it.

I've though about contacting the CyanogenMOD team about this, but never got past thinking about it. They get a LOT of requests.

Some guy at XDA forums nicknamed Dalingrin did wonders for the Nook build and also helped port Android to HP Thinkpad I believe. Getting a "musician's MOD" would be really cool.

[Sascha Franck]

Rather OT, but folks, I can tell you what (some people may already know it, but well...): I hate Apple with a passion. I really do. I don't like proprietary BS and the Apple world is stuffed with that.
Yet, the two electronic devices I'm using the most in my life are coming from Apple, namely my computer and my smartphone. Why is that?

Computer: Logic. The only reason, really. But it has been a very strong reason for me during the last 4-5 years. And a good decision, too. But as this is completely OT, I won't go into the details. Plus, this may indeed be subject to change one day, as I really find Studio One to be quite appealing, and once I can use a platform compatible sequencer I'll be back on Windows in a heartbeat.

Smartphone: Dudes, would I *love* to get me a Samsung Galaxy S2 (or even a Samsung Note). Everything (and I really mean just about everything) is *tons* better, be it the hardware or the OS. Nothing of that limited file incompatibility crap iOS comes with. No need to run that bloated piece of crapware called iTunes anymore. No need to ever take a USB stick with me. Etc. etc.
However, the reason I'll still be continuing to use an iPhone is as easy as it gets: Low latency operation for music programs.

Now, in this thread those smartphone music programs have already been classified as toys. Such a statement couldn't be more away from the truth - or it's coming from someone without a clue.

Example #1: I'm currently involved in a (rather wellpaid even) theatre production. My main job is playing guitar but there's a scene in which I have to fire away some samples (synchronized to some acting). Up until recently I had my Macbook and a 2 octave keyboard with me to do that. Hence I had to look for some space to place a stand for the two. Stuff from the past, now I'm just using Nano Studio and its (excellent) TRG module on my iPhone. If I already had an iPhone 4 (I'm still on a 3GS), I'd probably even leave my GT-10 (guitar floorboard processor) at home and just use Amplitube/iOS (I don't exactly need much sounds there and don't need to quickly switch between them, either).
So, these are toys? No f***ing way!

Example #2: Just recently, I recorded some guitars for a friend. Two of the main guitar takes were done on my iPhone - I just imported the backings into Amplitube, recorded some stuff and then did the final sound tweakings on my Macbook.
Toy-ish? Hell, no!

Example #3: I really prefer wasting some backstage waiting time with a little practicing or noodling, rather than playing stupid games and such. Yet I hate to always bring my laptop, audio interface and what not. So I just connect my guitar and headphones to my AmpLink adapter, fire up Amplitube and iRealb and noodle away.
How can such a nice and well working tidy setup be considered a toy?

Example #4: Unfortunately not exactly reality yet, but once Apple improves Garage Band for iOS so you can a) edit and b) work with a little lower latency (it's beyond me why they didn't manage that yet, really...), this is gonna be a dream for any Mac and/or Logic user, as the songs you create as sketches or whatever will instantly load 1:1 on your main DAW.
As said, once GB is improved that way (and I'm sure it will be one day...), this is further away from being "toy-ish" than anything else.


Alright. Sorry for that long OT drivel.

Now, what I wanted to say is that music tools for Android (unless they are more or less "offline" editors, step sequencer and what not) will never be even remotely as useful as what you can find for iOS - as long as Android won't offer true low latency operation.
Fwiw, it's also got to do with the hardware. I just hate the dock (edit: seriously, I wrote "dick connector" first...) connector for my iPhone. Once you forget it at home and run out of power, you need to spend way too much money for a replacement. The length of the supplied cable is laughable and I have yet to find a USB extension that works. So, again, proprietary bullshit. A stock mini USB connector is a LOT lovelier.
But: This very dock connector is also allowing for very professional connections. Be it high quality audio (even with external AD conversion) or MIDI. Again, nothing like this is possible on any smartphone running Android (at least not to my knowledge).

Really, I wish I could tell Apple to kiss my ass, but the options iOS (plus adequate hardware expandability) adds to my smartphone are just too great for me as a musician. Wherever I have my iPhone with me (which is practically everywhere) I can do some field recording, sampling, beat programming, capture easy song ideas and what not. And once I have my guitar with me (which is very often, too), I can instantly do rather professional guitar recordings. No Android users can do that at all.

Finally, Android phones could lose some market share because of that. On the other hand, I doubt that the few thousands of musicians really taking advance of whatever realtime audio capabilities on smartphones would make up for enough of a revenue for developing a low latency audio/MIDI protocol plus some serious external hardware communication connector. Especially now that most of those musicians are already using iOS devices, so those won't switch at all and their possibly interested non-iOS colleagues will rather buy something compatible than something they haven't seen already.
Bottomline, IMO it's not exactly unlikely that Apple will keep the monopol in this part of the market.

- Sascha

[Karmacomposer]

#1. I will NOT root my phone or tablet (especially since the Acer Iconia A500 tablet cost me $400 and works so damn well in every other area - and I get updates) to achieve a bit better latency. Oh, and my Viewsonic Gtablet IS rooted and it still gets CRAPPY latency. It has the Nvidia Tegra dual core processor. Perhaps we should ask Nvidia what they plan to do about low latency?

#2. I agree with Sascha on pretty much every point. I have my Acer and my Ipad2 with me whereever I go. I always whip out my Acer for email, news, playing games (high audio latency is not as noticeable because of the action - but it's there), invoicing, surfing the web, opening word and excel documents, giving powerpoint presentations (built in HDMI) and taking video (it's camera is far superior to the iPad2). However, when I run ANY of my music-making apps (and I own them all) on the Acer (which also has a dual core Nvidia Tegra processor), it is not fun. It is annoying to attempt to play the on screen keyboards. On those apps that act more like Acid Pro - loop players, they do not work well at all either. Trying to drag and drop the audio files is a drag (pun intended) and is not fun. There is not one program so far that is as eloquent and works as well as the most basic software on IOS.

Case in point. I was chaperoning my son's class for their winter play rehearsal at the local theatre. It was boring because I had to sit there for 5 hours while they all rehearsed (3,4,5 graders). So, I whipped out my iPad2, plugged in headphones, and started playing music. I used Garageband and created a beautiful tune with their SMART instruments. God, it was so much fun. The results were instant since the iPad2 is a faster machine that its predecessor.

Then I played some synths into Meteor. It recorded them like a champ - no problems at all.

Then I played with iSequence, Looptastic and several other music-making programs. Not one problem. It was a lot of fun.

I picked up my Acer and tried to use some of the music making programs I have - Uloops, Caustic, the new Vequence Sequencer, Jasuto and a few other synths. I made NO music, had NO fun and was just annoyed the entire time (no offence to Caustic - IMO, the absolute BEST music app on the Android platform).

It's simple. Making music on the go requires an Apple product - for everything else, there's Android.

Mike

[The Safe Places]

Karmacomposer, Sascha Franck - It has got to be fixed! Why must one put up with Apple when Android has the potential to 1. do it better, 2. do it cheaper (maybe), 3. while not having even one of the proprietary niggles mentioned?

I've though about contacting the CyanogenMOD team about this, but never got past thinking about it. They get a LOT of requests.

Some guy at XDA forums nicknamed Dalingrin did wonders for the Nook build and also helped port Android to HP Thinkpad I believe. Getting a "musician's MOD" would be really cool.

This really must be pursued. Imagine the change it'll bring about, the possibilities it'll open up. Not entirely unlike stealing fire from the gods.

Either that, or perhaps the community could collectively lobby for this with Google or something.

Lastly,

And, to date, as far as I know, you cannot use external hardware like a audio I/O box with MIDI and pro audio connectors (I use a Presonus) with any Android device, yet I can and do use it with the iPad.

...why is this so? This may be the key, or one of the keys, to the problem. As far as I know, tablets do have USB 2.0 OTG and host support (atleast I've seen that on tablets costing under $500 do, I'm not too much in the know regarding tablets/smartphones above that range), and Android has host support since Gingerbread - so what gives?