KVR Audio

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:30 am

I should clarify the title I think. Which daws allow control or modulation of parameters components via the output of other components.

I'm interested specifically in software that fulfills typical DAW functions: sequencing, mixing, sound generation, audio editing, linear playback.

So far I know of:

Max: Not exactly a daw, but you can get pretty damn close with some effort.
Pd: See above.
Bidule: Perhaps?
Usine: Perhaps? edit: Confirmed!
Renoise: complete routing and parameter modulation, Lua scripting.
Mu.Lab: Seems to be modular? edit: Confirmed!
Live+M4L: Perhaps? I don't know of m4l can interact outside of the m4l environment.
Reason: not the epitome of flexibility, but it seems to be quite open in terms of modularity. edit: Totally modular.

What else is there, if anything?

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:11 pm

I just learned that reason is fully modular with use of combinator. Very cool.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:22 pm

The closest "traditional" (traditional with many beautiful twists) DAW to be also fully Modular is MuLab and it's quite deep, more than you can see at first.
It's built to be modular so it grows based on that architecture.
A pure joy to use and the piano-roll is outstandingly practical with powerful nested features.
BTW Mulab has a Combinator equivalent that is even more powerful: the MUX which is going to be also released as a VST soon.

UncleAge · Post by **UncleAge** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:50 pm

My suggestion would be Usine or MuLab. You can skin that cat in MAX, AudioMulch, Bidule and to some degree even in Reaper and Live/M4L, depending on your requirements. But I would probably lean towards the first two...

nilhartman · Post by **nilhartman** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:14 pm

Five12's Numerology 3 Pro is a fantastic modular sequencer.

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:22 pm

nilhartman wrote:Five12's Numerology 3 Pro is a fantastic modular sequencer.

Really? I've looked into it and I don't see much modularity to it. It has lots of sequencing capabilities, but if I want to generate something with some plugin and have it control/modulate/affect a parameter of another plugin, I don't see how it does that?

I see that it has its own generators, but that seems like just built in modulation rather than modularity.

Am I missing something major with this software in this regard?

UncleAge · Post by **UncleAge** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Robert Randolph wrote:
nilhartman wrote:Five12's Numerology 3 Pro is a fantastic modular sequencer.
Really? I've looked into it and I don't see much modularity to it. It has lots of sequencing capabilities, but if I want to generate something with some plugin and have it control/modulate/affect a parameter of another plugin, I don't see how it does that?

Its possible but there may be limitations... The routing can occur in many ways in Numerology, not just the cables on the back panel. Keep in mind though that its Mac, so the plugins are AU and most, if not all, don't send midi. That may present a bit of a problem for you. So can you describe one of these situations where you would want to control one plugin from another?

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:47 pm

UncleAge wrote:
Robert Randolph wrote:
nilhartman wrote:Five12's Numerology 3 Pro is a fantastic modular sequencer.
Really? I've looked into it and I don't see much modularity to it. It has lots of sequencing capabilities, but if I want to generate something with some plugin and have it control/modulate/affect a parameter of another plugin, I don't see how it does that?
Its possible but there may be limitations... The routing can occur in many ways in Numerology, not just the cables on the back panel. Keep in mind though that its Mac, so the plugins are AU and most, if not all, don't send midi. That may present a bit of a problem for you. So can you describe one of these situations where you would want to control one plugin from another?

The format is irrelevant. For instance: Renoise manages just fine by using in-between devices that allow you to use various signals to modulate automatable parameters from AU/VST/LADSPA. Likewise max can do similar, and from what I can see Mu.Lab can as well. Reason can do this in its own closed system.

I agree that there could be more flexibility with allowing midi I/O in various circumstances where some hosts/formats do not, but I really don't see that as something that should be a limiting factor in modularity. Output->parameter modulation can be done, it has been done, and it is being done.

As for what situation... anything. It's a workflow. It's an excellent environment to be experimental in.

UncleAge · Post by **UncleAge** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Robert Randolph wrote:
UncleAge wrote:
Robert Randolph wrote:
nilhartman wrote:Five12's Numerology 3 Pro is a fantastic modular sequencer.
Really? I've looked into it and I don't see much modularity to it. It has lots of sequencing capabilities, but if I want to generate something with some plugin and have it control/modulate/affect a parameter of another plugin, I don't see how it does that?
Its possible but there may be limitations... The routing can occur in many ways in Numerology, not just the cables on the back panel. Keep in mind though that its Mac, so the plugins are AU and most, if not all, don't send midi. That may present a bit of a problem for you. So can you describe one of these situations where you would want to control one plugin from another?
The format is irrelevant. For instance: Renoise manages just fine by using in-between devices that allow you to use various signals to modulate automatable parameters from AU/VST/LADSPA. Likewise max can do similar, and from what I can see Mu.Lab can as well. Reason can do this in its own closed system.

I agree that there could be more flexibility with allowing midi I/O in various circumstances where some hosts/formats do not, but I really don't see that as something that should be a limiting factor in modularity. Output->parameter modulation can be done, it has been done, and it is being done.

As for what situation... anything. It's a workflow. It's an excellent environment to be experimental in.

I'm sorry for being unclear. I was looking to learn. So my understanding in most environments is that it's pretty simple to automate most parameters. However, I am interested in how a device can read the output of a parameter inside of a plugin if the said plugin doesn't expose that information? It may be common but it's not so common to me. That is why I asked for an example. I want to better understand that feature. I quite understand how that could exist in reason as it may be wrapped up in their spec for plugins.

Oh, and thanks for the Renoise suggestion. I'll look into it to see what it offers.

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:27 pm

The parameter is not the output. Some sort of module has to provide an output, then that can be used to modulate a parameter.

The way most plugin formats currently work, they don't allow any method of parameter output, so even in quite an open system you'd be limited to a single source as a modulation source. Sure it could be possible with multi-outs, but no one does that.

The only way around that is built-in effects that can do this, which all the hosts i mentioned offer. Things like renoise and mu.lab give you a way to bring the external environment into the system. Things like max/pd/reason give you an entire environment built on the principle of module interaction.

There could be other ways these things could/can be done and I'm not aware. That's why I created this thread

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:29 pm

Actually, VST allows the plugin to report control movements so... parameter output should be possible in some limited fashion.

Hmm.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:47 pm

I didn't know Renoise was modular.

nay-seven · Post by **nay-seven** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:34 pm

Hello Robert,
I can confirm that in Usine, if the VST developer has declared the parameters, you can route the parameters inputs and outputs to what you need, using the match/conversion modules of Usine, generally it's 0 to 1 values.

This can be done for each parameter or by using an array display module for all of them.

Robert Randolph · Post by **Robert Randolph** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:43 pm

nay-seven wrote:Hello Robert,
I can confirm that in Usine, if the VST developer has declared the parameters, you can route the parameters inputs and outputs to what you need, using the match/conversion modules of Usine, generally it's 0 to 1 values.

This can be done for each parameter or by using an array display module for all of them.

Awesome, thanks for the post!

Frantz · Post by **Frantz** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:35 am

Rax'n'Trax is a free Windows DAW that emulates hardware step sequencers. It is something like Numerology which is Mac only. It is modular in the sense that you first create a sequence of notes on something called a Mono tool. Then you attach various tools (Transposer, Retrigger, Skipper, Muter, etc.) to the Mono tool that can alter the music generated.

I think it is fantastic. The developer has been quick to provide bug fixes. Note it does not allow audio editing.

EDIT: In Rax'n'Trax, I don't think the output of one VST can influence parameters of another VST if that's what you are looking for. Reason is close except it uses their own devices instead of VSTs.

What daws out there are modular?