Another company without a demo version, no refunds and Win x86 only

[robotmonkey]

Why would you need a demo for such plugin? One look at the page and I already know its not worth the money nor time.

[hibidy]

I kinda agree with that, but compy was talking about ALL the companies with that policy.

[standalone]

I think there is recently a trend to create plugins, ask for a certain ammount of money, but refuse the user to give a proper chance to test unless you purchase it. And on top of all that, skim the user of a proper refund.

Maybe on the long run, this is a topic for "Everything else (Music)", but for starters, it fits well in here.




Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

While I don't disregard the idea of "monitoring your used time" for a production, I highly question everything else resolving around it.

I don't even go into the fact, that HOFA offers a just as comfortable plugin, which is cross platform, in form of the free HOFA 4U plugins for quite a while now (since early 2012 IIRC, without any need for C/P schemes - I'm using it, it's a nice add-on, I'm liking it). Competition is good for business.



The points that are clearly annoying me, and give me a red flag to even consider plugins by such companies (or this particular developer in question), are the following:

- the plugins in question are are 32bit Windows only (there is no listing if this is SynthEdit/FlowStone/etc or native code - the basic GUI elements are however known in the "freeware realm")
- there are no demos for either plugins other than audio demos
- the homepage in this example clearly states among "Terms and Conditions", I quote: "No refunds possible ! No products purchased here may be resold in part or in whole or redistributed for any reason. Each order is in the form of a digital download that is privately emailed to you!"
- the installation is "password locked". Which I've rarely seen on the market, unless it's a password protected ZIP during beta stage, or a regular serial key system that is handled during the installation process.

At this day and age - absolute red flags IMO.
Especially if you're new into the VST game. And this isn't even about any C/P scheme that people have constant hate-fests about.


I already have severe problems with purchasing plugins in order to test them (Sonimus and Sknote comes to mind), but at least these companies offer a refund (not sure on Sonimus - gave up on them; no questions asked return policy for Sknote). Not so in this example.




Which brings me to the following question(s):
Why can developers assume, that it is okay and worth to ask for money (which is their right to do so, no doubt), but in return cut the user of all(!) rights? Like with a missing demo, no resale and/or refund?

Why is there a need to support/defend such companies in the first place?



I already hear this argument, but this is by no means a "no brainer". Not only is this (IMO) stupid to support such behavior. It is also an unnecessary waste of money, should you decide to not use this plugin after all. Or should you realize "wait, it doesn't work in my host".

We all know the negative backlash that usually follows that - cracked software releases, negative critism (areas: customer support, user handling), hatefests at webboards, etc.


This is a troubling trend - so please, don't encourage more developers to go that route. If there is such constant uproar about C/P schemes, we shouldn't ignore these just mentioned occurrences as well.

Either of the following ways should always(!) be possible.
A demo released within a timely manner (looking at you Steinberg/Yamaha, or the recently released Vengeance Sound plugins), a no-questions-asked refund, a resale policy (which is legal in the EU either way, see the Market Place discussion about this topic).



This thread is food for thought.
Please think about it, contribute and stay friendly.

Oh, bummer. I was so happy as I was reading your post thinking that you could make it to the end without mentioning the word 'Steinberg'.

Ok, never mind, good try. Someday...

[Burillo]

HOFA Project Time. Free, x64, does the same thing.

[Compyfox]

HOFA Project Time. Free, x64, does the same thing.

As I mention on page one - but again - I tried to be broad. The plugin in question I linked is just a prime example of a bigger problem.

I kinda agree with that, but compy was talking about ALL the companies with that policy.

Exactly.

As further example in this case: The compressor on their page only has audio demos. No available documentation, no demo. And then in the ToS the info states "no refunds, no resale".

Are we back in the 80ies where I had to go by hear-say without testing?
(sample CDs come to mind)

Oh, bummer. I was so happy as I was reading your post thinking that you could make it to the end without mentioning the word 'Steinberg'.

Ok, never mind, good try. Someday...

Steinberg in this case is a negative example of making usable demos available. Both the Cubase 7 and Cubase 7.5 demos were delayed up to 4 months post release (not counting Cubase LE as part of a magazine deal, but LE x.5 doesn't exist). As with in this case, you bought yourself into the company (so to speak) - but you didn't know what to expect. Other than what you already knew from experience as longtime user, and what you saw in demo videos. You could not(!) test if this tool is even running properly on your rig, you only found out after you bought it.

Then the thing happened, what hibidy said on page 1 regarding "customer abuse":
The fanboy following turned against those people that had severe issues (the usual, I quote "I don't have this problem - it's your rig, you're imagining things"). You of all people were a part of it as well.

Would there have been a demo right from day one. Or let's say postponed up two week max... then there would have been absolutely no issue whatsoever. Maybe even less harsh critism. But the way this company went (again: no demo until 4 months post release, then 6-7 months later a pay-for-bugfixes .5 update with no .5 demo until 4 months after that release, on top of raised upgrade fees or "interim payments" in the first place), it is clear that there is something wrong. I mean, they pretty much release full install ISO's on day one - why not also issue demo keys at the same time?

I am not even critisizing their demo period system on that behalf - which is usually 31 days or a specific number of host relaunches (usually 300 times) until you activate the product. But I experiences a host relaunch counts down in a value of 2 to even 4 instead of single steps (happened to me with Cubase AI/LE/Elements). So 300 host restarts would mean, you can use it about 75-150 times. If you encouter issues that you try to get fixed, definitely have fun testing!

At least Steinberg support tried to help and do damage control if you took the time and effort to get in touch with the support and if you were persistent.


In case of this company I mentioned on page one - we don't have any of that.


In case of Sonimus... the developer at least took the critism with his first plugin and released further info about his creations rather than marketing babble and locking it away into user accounts. Still no demo, but I think you can at least ask for a refund.

Sknote was also heavily critisized for their "no demo" route back in the days (still are to a certain extend) - but at least the dev made clear from day one "don't like it, I refund you". Which is a loss for him if every payment goes through PayPal. That there still isn't any user account to keep track of your licenses and updates lies on a whole different ballpark.

Crysonic (to mention another prime example of how not to do it) still lacks proper documentation (or the documentation is only available through a user account, for which you have to sign up) and rather focuses on flashy GUI's and constant sales. Resale is therefore pretty much nill, half of the stuff is placebo (clearly measurable), or just not according to specs (their EBU R-128 meter for example). If you have issues - there is barely any support. With even worse fallouts in certain cases (see the backlogs). By now, the comment towards this company is still "don't buy into it". So why should it be different here?

And then there is the credits system of IKM, that until this day is still non-transparent and confusing (Credits vs regular price, IMO! before anybody is weeping about this). There are constant sales which pretty much always tell you to "wait for it", they devalue their own products with this step. But at least IKM finally listened to critism like: demo time longer than 48 hours, maybe even the ability to ask for a demo reset at a later state. You get documentation (at least the basic stuff), if there is something wrong there is a customer service (which tries to help as good as they can - if the ticket system doesn't funk up again). Though resale is a bit troublesome.

And please don't let me get into the sample section prior to the internet. Here, demo versions were pretty much non existant (only audio demos and hear say), and refunds barely possible either. To this day, a lot of companies still say "you buy it, you keep it - no refunds, no resale" (until the EU stepped in regarding resales).



All of these companies are examples of a way a bigger game / issue. It is not against a specific company (directed at standalone). Jace-BeOS summed it up pretty much perfectly. It turned for the worse over the years. And not only in the audio industry.


The main issue (or point of critism) is still:
There is a trend towards "buy the cat in the hat, maybe even with a current 90% introduction sale, but don't expect any refunds".

And that is troubling.

[standalone]

Oh, bummer. I was so happy as I was reading your post thinking that you could make it to the end without mentioning the word 'Steinberg'.

Ok, never mind, good try. Someday...

Steinberg in this case is a negative example of making usable demos available.

Well, the title of your thread is "Another company without a demo version, no refunds and Win x86 only", none of which apply to Steinberg.

I'd suggest a change to "Another company without a demo version, no refunds and Win x86 only, and mandatory kick in Steinberg's eye" to make your op fully on topic. But it's just a suggestion, don't take it too seriously.

[Compyfox]

I can't make it right for you - sorry.

Just stay within your personal cloud to think that I'm still against Steinberg - read and understand what "examples are" next time. But stop constantly blaming me for no apparent reason other than let you feel better to have "shown a person that he/she is wrong".


Maybe the "don't take it too seriously" part should apply to you just as well.

[whyterabbyt]

blaming me for no apparent reason other than let you feel better to have "shown a person that he/she is wrong".

yeah, its about telling people here that some person not even present is wrong! and dont you forget it, standalone!

[standalone]

(If I so wanted to be taken seriously I would probably change my avatar, but that's another story...)

[Compyfox]

Should have known that it would turn into the usual "who's the clever one" battle by page two.

[No_Use]

As mentioned by someone one the first page, for me it's just a fruit of the free market, so what ?
I mean everyone has the right to offer anything as long as it applies to laws.

If you dislike this I think you should critisize market economy (and maybe certain laws) in general and not certain companies who just play by these rules.

Just my 2 cents.

[osiris]

http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

[Tricky-Loops]

Stop stop watching! Better make some timeless music!

[Compyfox]

If you dislike this I think you should critisize market economy (and maybe certain laws) in general and not certain companies who just play by these rules.

That's only scratching the surface.


Again summed up - I critisize towards the following:
- no documentation, just marketing babble
- no available demos
- no refund
- no resale

You basically buy the cat in the hat, and by doing so, you encourage developers to stay on that route.


It's not just this company.
It's a widespread issue in this market (plugins, samples, etc).

[Tricky-Loops]

Again summed up - I critisize towards the following:
- no documentation, just marketing babble
- no available demos
- no refund
- no resale

You basically buy the cat in the hat, and by doing so, you encourage developers to stay on that route.

But that's the problem of the people who buy it. So far I always had better alternatives than buying such plugins...