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Suggestions on first brass library

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

fozzil
KVRer
 
19 posts since 10 Nov, 2012

Postby fozzil; Wed May 21, 2014 9:33 am Suggestions on first brass library

Hello All,

Is the ( CineSamples CineBrass Core + Pro) a good library to have as my first dedicated brass lib? I was happy after watching the review from Daniel James. There is a Memorial Day 30% discount on the bundle which would come useful if I am to buy this now. I am mainly looking to have horns/trumpets/trombones sounds, along the lines of Batman and LOTR scores.

Just wanted to hear from you guys about this and also if you have any other suggestions over this (arnd USD 500-700*).

Thanks in advance.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Wed May 21, 2014 10:40 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

It's going to depend on how you like to work.
I think the Cinebrass things are designed well for the thing they're supposed to do, and it's a big sound. Are you just thinking about the Core, or both?

Maybe look at this too, though. In terms of a workflow this for me is more powerful. Couple hundred bucks more it looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfsq0WahgVs
fozzil
KVRer
 
19 posts since 10 Nov, 2012

Postby fozzil; Wed May 21, 2014 1:20 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

jancivil wrote:It's going to depend on how you like to work.
I think the Cinebrass things are designed well for the thing they're supposed to do, and it's a big sound. Are you just thinking about the Core, or both?

Maybe look at this too, though. In terms of a workflow this for me is more powerful. Couple hundred bucks more it looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfsq0WahgVs


hi,

I will go for both Core and Pro if I do. VSL is great; but I have read and heard that it requires a skilled and experienced approach to handle the dryness and use of their sounds so I was not completely sure if I was capable enuf :) .
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Wed May 21, 2014 2:28 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Not sure to what extent 'dry' means there; but in terms of Cinesamples, who have been doing this particular interface for a while now, with a sort of spot mic vis a vis a tree and overheads, they have recorded the thing in that room so there is an ease-of-use and a consistency that's a plus. But then you're faced with, do you blend that room with eg., Orchestral Tools' room? They're very different-sounding rooms. So while I have CineBrass, pulling the trigger before Dimension Brass was a thing, I'm more likely to make things fit CineSamples than vice versa. So, here the room sound should figure into a choice with that much money.

That said I think this deal on this library is very attractive. Also I trust Cinesamples where I think the development of a couple of others has been dodgy. And if you find you like that particular sound - I do - you're kind of led into sticking with their stuff. It really is a classic Hollywood tone.

But I'm using VSL Hybrid Reverb, which has the exact room (Teldex) Berlin Woodwinds uses. I wasn't so skilled when I started buying VSL. But it's 545 euros. And yes, their market is more towards people with orchestration knowledge, and it's quite more flexible while CS is giving you *this setup*, generic ensemble, and augmenting it with solo horns.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Wed May 21, 2014 3:40 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Another option is ProjectSAM Brass classic.
Chandlerhimself
KVRer
 
21 posts since 19 Dec, 2013, from Japan

Postby Chandlerhimself; Wed May 21, 2014 5:22 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

I've been really happy with WIVI band. It doesn't get mentioned often, but IMO it sounds really good, use little to no RAM and is extremely flexible. It uses physical modeling instead of samples, so the programming can be a little more demanding at times, but there isn't muchkeyswiyching to worry about. It also has auto divisi. The only problem is it doesn't have all the instruments I'd like, but I can overloook that. If you just need basic brass it should be ok. It has a tuba, trombone, French horn and a trumpet. Another great point is that it works equally well in classical, pop and jazz. Another similar product is samplemodeling, which sounds amazing, but it's a bit more expensive. Anyway it's only about $120 so you might want to check it out before you decide.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Wed May 21, 2014 8:18 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Well, fozzil has stated plainly they are interested in a big movie sound, and Wivi isn't going to be able to cut that gig.
Chandlerhimself
KVRer
 
21 posts since 19 Dec, 2013, from Japan

Postby Chandlerhimself; Wed May 21, 2014 11:19 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Wivi will be able to do that just as well as VSL if you know how to mix it. If he doesn't maybe it's better to use Cinesamples, but it's never a bad idea to check something else out especially if it's less than half the price.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
9821 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Wed May 21, 2014 11:24 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Definitely check out ProjectSAM OBC. Even better, check out Spitfire BML Bones, Low Brass and Horn Section.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu May 22, 2014 7:48 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Chandlerhimself wrote:Wivi will be able to do that just as well as VSL if you know how to mix it. If he doesn't maybe it's better to use Cinesamples, but it's never a bad idea to check something else out especially if it's less than half the price.
Well, I'm not persuaded it will. I think that you can't fix a synthetic sound in the mix to make it seem real, frankly. This reminds me of all the threads in Hosts where people bring in their host which does it all.

Also, the thing the OP is after is big ensembles. Telling me wivi will do what Dimension Brass does by your mixing skills is absurd. There is a specific technology of recording samples at work that makes acoustically viable ensembles. The typical trying to make an ensemble from individual recordings is a fool's errand, destined to sound crap through the type of phasing issues it produces doubling.
Chandlerhimself
KVRer
 
21 posts since 19 Dec, 2013, from Japan

Postby Chandlerhimself; Thu May 22, 2014 8:26 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

jancivil wrote:Well, I'm not persuaded it will. I think that you can't fix a synthetic sound in the mix to make it seem real, frankly. This reminds me of all the threads in Hosts where people bring in their host which does it all.

Also, the thing the OP is after is big ensembles. Telling me wivi will do what Dimension Brass does by your mixing skills is absurd. There is a specific technology of recording samples at work that makes acoustically viable ensembles. The typical trying to make an ensemble from individual recordings is a fool's errand, destined to sound crap through the type of phasing issues it produces doubling.


You don't have to fix anything, just add reverb. Also it isn't recordings of instruments it's basically a synth. Because it's a synth when it's playing more than one voice it can adjust all the voices pitch and timing slightly to get rid of phasing issues automatically. This seems to be the same approach sample modeling uses and it sounds alright to most which is why sample modeling is so popular. As I said above check out the sound of it and if you don't like it that's fine, but I don't see the point of trying to dissuade someone from listening to a demo and considering something.

Also

http://youtu.be/A3__i_ytYAI
http://youtu.be/0-Kqwf-Ktgo
http://youtu.be/e6Ez5G0vZMI

Sounds fine to me.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu May 22, 2014 8:33 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Well, I am responding now to assertions that don't stand to reason and factuality. Sample Modeling? The difference is actually in the name. The modeling builds on samples.

You aren't going to make wivi band seem like VSL to anyone that cares just through using reverb. I don't think you understand what Dimension Brass does, at all. * Yet you're willing to argue points.
* Because it's a synth when it's playing more than one voice it can adjust all the voices pitch and timing slightly to get rid of phasing issues automatically
Because it's a synth, the whole thing of an instrument's behavior acoustically IS ABSENT. (There is a reason Sample Modeling uses samples, which you tossed out the window.) You aren't dealing with it. Your argument really indicates why it sounds fake. And Sample Modeling does not deal with ensembles. If you tried to make an ensemble with it, the modeling doesn't do anything to address the issue. Instruments in a space interact in a very complex and subtle way with one another that is addressed specifically by the 'Dimension' libraries. And the CineSamples and ProjectSAM record the ensembles in a hall, with mic'ing options. Difference being you can create ensembles from players in Dimension. Making a synth add voices is assuredly not either of these.

You may not care, but I think someone that wants the sound of a movie score probably does. People making the scores, or the trailers or the mockups even, do not rely on wivi, I'm pretty confident.

"You don't have to fix anything" is your opinion, it is not actually a fact. The sound is not there, for me. Your assertion was you can make it pretty much do VSL, after a video which shows a really outstanding result (which you may have simply ignored). I checked out wivi pretty thoroughly, I assure you.

I don't see a lot of point in trying to persuade someone that wants a big Hollywood sound to wivi, for that matter.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu May 22, 2014 9:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
Lotuzia
KVRAF
 
7301 posts since 19 Feb, 2004, from Paris

Postby Lotuzia; Thu May 22, 2014 8:42 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Cant go wrong imho with VSL, but CS has a pretty good sound too.

Imho you should also pay attention to what libs you're going to mix them with ( Strings, Orchestral percs, etc ). VSL will blend OK with different VSL libs without too much effort if/when you decide to extend the palette.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Soundbanks for Vsti

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there [Xils-Lab Team]
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9449 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu May 22, 2014 9:09 am Re: Suggestions on first brass library

That's a good point. I think that to some extent a choice of Cinesamples suggests a path of more Cinesamples.
I wanted certain things out of the low brass particularly and certain tricks really sold me. But if I'm going to take much advantage of the room sound, I'm pressed to make VSL percussion blend with it. So I'll tend to use the close mic and turn the tree and OH way down or off. & I don't like the Cinesamples percussion libraries sound or the approach and I don't need it.

And the Spitfire stuff, even moreso, has a definite character of sound. It's a big fat old vintage sound; they print to tape. So it's hardly suited for anything I'm going to make. I like it for what it is, but it's not going to blend easily with everything, that's for sure.
fozzil
KVRer
 
19 posts since 10 Nov, 2012

Postby fozzil; Thu May 22, 2014 4:23 pm Re: Suggestions on first brass library

Guys,

Thanks for all the suggestions and info. For percussion, I have Spitfire HZ Perc, with Damage and StormDrum2 Pro adding to it. I have CS2 for strings and Spitfire Alb 1 and 2 for ensembles. I think VSL pretty much does decently blend with almost every other lib sound.

VSL is definitely as authentic as it gets for sounds that vsts can offer but I am not sure if looking at the number of articulations that CB Core+Pro offers makes it at least worth considering, given the 12 horn ensembles and velocity based articulation switching (not sure if VSL offers it). I really wish there was a detailed walkthrough for Vsl Dimension Brass as well (and other VSL libs too)..just a couple of 2-4 min videos with Guy Bacos and his awesomeness with the library makes me question myself repeatedly :)
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