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NFR - legal in the EU ?

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:07 am NFR - legal in the EU ?

Hi guys,

I don't know if this is the right forum but feel free to move this thread if not even though it somehow fits to the thread about: "Vendors with non-transferrable licenses" in B/S/T.

I'd like to sell a license which has a Not-For-Resale license policy when bought second hand.

According to EU laws companies who sell software cannot stop reselling software in the EU.
I know that many companys in the EU still restrict resales and some companies just might not be aware of this law (from 2012) when located elsewhere in the world and they sell stuff in EU.
Its a bad behaviour and I guess they just let people complain as most people wont start a lawsuit due to the "low value".

Anyone knows what the law says to NFR ? So the company allows a license transfer to a second buyer bot not more ? Its nearly always written in the licence terms but what about this:
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... ropean-law

I like to hear some input about this.

Thanks a lot
Cheers
Last edited by weedywhizz on Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:32 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

In this case:
When EU law allows resale of software - why is another resale afterwards not possible ?
The license terms of vendors aren't valid when the vendor says "no resale" and EU law says the opposite.

Also to point out: I don't want to start a flame war against any vendor but when a vendor sells in the EU their terms need to be in compliance with the law. And vendors know that - especially when they are located in the EU.
Last edited by weedywhizz on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
m-ac
KVRist
 
244 posts since 18 Dec, 2007

Postby m-ac; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:34 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

I really have no idea, but I'm glad people are questioning the fact and looking into it. Seems like one of those 'things' we always just accepted. Question everything, people!
liebold
KVRer
 
5 posts since 18 Mar, 2004

Postby liebold; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:43 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

Well, normally NFR-licenses are given to people who are likely to advertise the product like journalists, dealers etc. So it's quite understandable, that software-companies don't want these people so start a side-business with their products. If one buys a NFR-license, one can be quite sure, that the seller got it for free...
Morph243
KVRist
 
91 posts since 22 Feb, 2012

Postby Morph243; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:44 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

There's no harm intended for both consumers and producers.

If the law states that NFR is illegal, then by all means: let's enforce that!
Meanwhile, software producers should have fair EULAs, protecting their businesses and the consumers. I personally wouldn't mind paying a small fee to compensate a vendor's hassle of handling a license transfer. However, forbidding me if the law says otherwise is a whole different matter.
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:46 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

liebold wrote:Well, normally NFR-licenses are given to people who are likely to advertise the product like journalists, dealers etc. So it's quite understandable, that software-companies don't want these people so start a side-business with their products. If one buys a NFR-license, one can be quite sure, that the seller got it for free...



This makes sense and is absolutely fine when the software was "for-free" for whatever purpose.
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:47 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

Morph243 wrote:There's no harm intended for both consumers and producers.

If the law states that NFR is illegal, then by all means: let's enforce that!
Meanwhile, software producers should have fair EULAs, protecting their businesses and the consumers. I personally wouldn't mind paying a small fee to compensate a vendor's hassle of handling a license transfer. However, forbidding me if the law says otherwise is a whole different matter.


:tu:
Completely fine for vendors to protect their business. Small fees ? -> Fine.
X-amount of time to wait before reselling -> fine.
Completely blocking resale -> sucks.
If you don't use the software any more you can put the software in trash. Senseless.
Last edited by weedywhizz on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Acid Mitch
KVRAF
 
1560 posts since 5 Oct, 2005

Postby Acid Mitch; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:50 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

liebold wrote:If one buys a NFR-license, one can be quite sure, that the seller got it for free...


Not at all. With companies like GForce and Sonic projects the original buyer can sell it but it becomes NFR after that and with Imageline everything is NFR no matter how much you paid,
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:53 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

Acid Mitch wrote:
liebold wrote:If one buys a NFR-license, one can be quite sure, that the seller got it for free...


Not at all. With companies like GForce and Sonic projects the original buyer can sell it but it becomes NFR after that and with Imageline everything is NFR no matter how much you paid,


...and Cytomic (Australia),
LennarDigital (EU/Netherlands)
Imageline (EU/Belgium)
Modartt (EU/France)
Madrona Labs (US)
and many others...
Some of them also allow that if you ask them. Some of them not - like LennarDigital...
Those who allow might know that its not correct to block resales.
Last edited by weedywhizz on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:31 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

I just contacted Imageline and asked about the EU laws and how it fits to their license policy.

I am also in contact with LennarDigital, who stated that he DOES allow license transfers. My mail regarding EU laws and NFR is still unanswered...

It would be interesting what companys say or if they even answer...
This discussion is also free for companys - so please chime in and let us know your reasons...
User avatar
WOK
KVRAF
 
1893 posts since 24 Feb, 2004, from Germany

Postby WOK; Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:56 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

The case at the EU court was about sold software.
Software given away free for public realation marked as NFR is still NFR.

Software licences bought in the EU can not be restricted as NFR by the maker inside EU.
The case was about Oracle, offering downloads for their products that needed a licence to work. The licence can now be bought second hand and the software downloaded from their site.

The court left more questions opened than cleared;
- the whole thing is only valid inside EU
- it is not allowed to make copies and sell them (so what to do with a download only software?)
- the seller is obliged to destroy his own copy (installation)
- the buyer has to proof that the seller did that (how??)
- the case is only valid for not time-limited credes
ImageImage
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2653 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:10 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

Some things that I would like tio be clarified:

- When we are talking about music, are we talking about licenses or the physical media? (I already know the answer to this, it's just rhetorical).
- Given that this is a license, why am I not eligible to have the same product that I have already licensed in another physical support, just for the cost of the media?
- Am I allowed to sell downloaded musics? How? How do I prove I own those licenses?

The courts should answer this, but, of course, to have a sentence for that I'd have to sue Universal or some of the other majors, and I have no funds for that, so, they keep reselling me (and all others) the same thing we already bought, over and over again.

As usual, courts leave more things to be clarified than those they clarify.
Fernando (FMR)
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:22 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

fmr wrote:Some things that I would like tio be clarified:

- When we are talking about music, are we talking about licenses or the physical media? (I already know the answer to this, it's just rhetorical).
- Given that this is a license, why am I not eligible to have the same product that I have already licensed in another physical support, just for the cost of the media?
- Am I allowed to sell downloaded musics? How? How do I prove I own those licenses?

The courts should answer this, but, of course, to have a sentence for that I'd have to sue Universal or some of the other majors, and I have no funds for that, so, they keep reselling me (and all others) the same thing we already bought, over and over again.

As usual, courts leave more things to be clarified than those they clarify.


Interesting aspects indeed.
Seems like US laws also completely differs when speaking about music.
http://allthingsd.com/20130401/you-stil ... urt-rules/

In another German article they state that this is not valid for EU customers and there are copy protecion mechanisms that automaically delete sold music to make it possible for the new "owner" to legally license the music:
http://www.giga.de/unternehmen/apple/ne ... en-redigi/
weedywhizz
KVRist
 
88 posts since 18 Jul, 2009

Postby weedywhizz; Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:28 am Re: NFR - legal in the EU ?

Just got an answer from ImageLine:

Dear XXX,

License transfers are NOT supported and NOT allowed.

Right now Europa has ''guidelines'' which in no way are laws!

There's little we can do about people transferring licenses behind our
back. However we will not offer any cooperation in license transfers since
we do not believe the EU ruling applies to software which includes Lifetime
Free Updates.

When transferring licenses there is also the possibility of identity theft
as the buyer will have access to historic account data including address
etc. Our system will automatically lock accounts when they are used from
too many different IP locations so the chance remains the account will
render itself useless.

So wouldn't rather fund further development of an industry that's already
hit very hard by piracy? We receive a lot of complaints about people buying
a license transfer and ending up with a crack.

We have been giving away Lifetime Free Updates for over 15 years. We have
been doing this in the face of competition that charges customers for every
single update. We are proud of this promise and will continue, to deliver
with your continued support.

Best regards,

Image-Line Support Team
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