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Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

Anything about hardware musical instruments.

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bill45
KVRian
 
1348 posts since 14 Jun, 2006

Postby bill45; Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:41 am Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

And of course the ? is how well does it track?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98u-MDT ... Jd&index=1
SLiC
KVRian
 
585 posts since 2 Dec, 2004, from North Wales

Postby SLiC; Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:47 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

I don't believe there are any tracking issues as it's the actual guitar sound that is simply proceeded to sound like an organ, it should have no more issues with tracking than a delay pedal...just a different process. There is no pitch to midi or sound triggering...

I am buying one as soon as they hit the UK, be cool with my variax as I can take the guitar sound via the digital out and put the mag pickups to the pedal :)
bill45
KVRian
 
1348 posts since 14 Jun, 2006

Postby bill45; Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:34 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

Thanks, I bet you have to play really clean.
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
24749 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from New England U.S.A.

Postby Hink; Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:25 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

bill45 wrote:Thanks, I bet you have to play really clean.


why?
New Song LBS
JCJR
KVRian
 
961 posts since 17 Apr, 2005

Postby JCJR; Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:30 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

Rather amazing. Sad there is no leslie speed footswitch.
Jim Y
KVRist
 
316 posts since 29 Jun, 2008, from Mid Wales, UK.

Postby Jim Y; Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:18 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

It is impressive. Very clever.

I find it hard to imagine there's no digital processing involved. I think I heard some glitching in the demo.

The only way I can come up with to do it analog is...
... compression followed by a "square" gated envelope shaper. Derive keyclick from the envelope edges. A multipole rotary switch to select different filters and different settings of a delay chip (PT2399?) with an LFO for the vibrato/chorus/leslie effects...
Nah, I don't think that would do it.

Surely must be some DSP in there?

Would love to see inside one.
JCJR
KVRian
 
961 posts since 17 Apr, 2005

Postby JCJR; Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:40 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

I don't think this would be possible in analog except with such a huge farm of opamps that the noise would be as loud as the signal. A circuit board the size of a banquet table. Consider how sucky was the arp guitar synth, and the arp designers were not fools. They about bankrupted the company trying to make an analog guitar synth viable. Non viable even with hex pickups and a fair handful of hardwired digital chips tossed in there.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but no way would I have ever accepted an assigment to pull this trick off, even in the digital domain, non realtime in a puter with relatively "unlimited" resources.

Though of course roland and line 6 have engineers capable of making such things work (more or less).

Then again possibly the device requires an inhumanly accurate guitarist. It wouldn't be the first device with such requirements. Long ago at a namm show this fella was demoing an ebow. He was doing sonic miracles with the ebow, without even breaking a sweat. Very smooth impeccable musical sonorities. So I bought one for guitar friends to record with. My guitarist friends were quite talented, but none of them had a good enough touch to wring anything at all musical out of that ebow. The fella demoing at namm must have been the world champion eric clapton of ebow players to get anything useful at all out of it.
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3630 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:07 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

Then again possibly the device requires an inhumanly accurate guitarist.


I noticed this as well. The player was very very stiff and it appeared that on all the guitars played the string gauges were rather heavy. It's the same thing I noticed with regard to the strat triple play (although the triple play had very overt latency on the fender website)

A few of the covers performed were... well less then accurate renditions. I still think it's a nice stomp box for guitar. Granted I'm not selling a ztar for it.
JCJR
KVRian
 
961 posts since 17 Apr, 2005

Postby JCJR; Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:10 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

tapper mike wrote:
Then again possibly the device requires an inhumanly accurate guitarist.


I noticed this as well. The player was very very stiff and it appeared that on all the guitars played the string gauges were rather heavy. It's the same thing I noticed with regard to the strat triple play (although the triple play had very overt latency on the fender website)

A few of the covers performed were... well less then accurate renditions. I still think it's a nice stomp box for guitar. Granted I'm not selling a ztar for it.


Even if the unit is glitch free under all playing conditions, and perfectly makes the organ tone (with no guitar tone leaking thru), then POSSIBLY it will tend to sound more like "odd guitar" and not much like organ unless played very carefully and cleanly, with "keyboard precision". Not that keyboardists are any more precise than other instrumentalists, but in a non broken keyboard you usually don't hear hammer-ons, chord slides, organic bends, chord snatches, strums. Because many things easy and natural on guitar are difficult on keyboard (and vice versa).

It is easily noticeable playing emulative instruments from keyboards. Take a perfect string patch and play it like a piano, and you hear accordion rather than strings. A perfect sax patch played like a piano also tends to sound like accordion.

One time I played around making a voice to midi program, preserving vibrato, pitch and amplitude info. Singing into a synth string patch still sounded like a person singing, rather than sounding like a keyboard playing the string patch, or sounding like a violinist playing the real thing. So the performance was still limited by the ability of the vocalist. The vocalist would have to be good enough to sing like a violinist or it would not sound at all natural.

Beats heck out of me how this box works. Maybe Mike Matthews thunk up a sneaky easy shortcut, but all I can imagine is polyphonic pitch detection and resynthesis, which is a tall order to get glitch free.
lfm
KVRAF
 
2824 posts since 22 Jan, 2005, from Sweden

Postby lfm; Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:41 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

EH has the knowledge as far as I noticed.

I have the POG2 and it is tracking very well.
That also can produce something organ like tones in many ways with different attack settings.
JCJR
KVRian
 
961 posts since 17 Apr, 2005

Postby JCJR; Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:27 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

lfm wrote:EH has the knowledge as far as I noticed.

I have the POG2 and it is tracking very well.
That also can produce something organ like tones in many ways with different attack settings.

Thanks. You make a good point that it may be refinement of whatever is inside POG rather than something entirely new. Though the POG itself is rather remarkable as far as being relatively artifact-free and low latency.

Found this old thread on the POG--
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=208046&p=2959816&hilit=pog#p2959816
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3630 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:36 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

It is easily noticeable playing emulative instruments from keyboards. Take a perfect string patch and play it like a piano, and you hear accordion rather than strings. A perfect sax patch played like a piano also tends to sound like accordion.


Part of that is mindset and part of that is technique and the last part is physicality of the instrument. One of the things that lead me away from midi guitar was guitar harmonic structure. Take for a simple example "Piano Open Chords" (as opposed to guitar open chords) Piano open chords have a large open area between where the left hand hits it's highest not and where the right hand begins it's lowest note. Using altered tunings and even 7 string guitars still would not make credible Piano Open chords realistic (god help if you had to play cocktail piano on a midi guitar, even a 6 string ztar) Where as in the case of a good representation of sax on a midi keyboard..All the ones I've heard use breath controllers an expression pedal and more cc controllers while the right hand plays the notes. Eigenharps are prolly the best device one can have for playing midi wind instruments.

Much of stringed instrument realism is really quite demanding and while I can say I'm really impressed with Keytar Jeff Abbot and Real Guitar. There are certain aspects that seem to get missed. Like how close the bow / fingers / pick etc are to the bridge. pick/bow direction Bow swell fret position and string gauge also affect timbe. Modulation is a poor substitute for vibrato. Guitar vibrato includes both volume and pitch rate for both is controlled by technique rather then a simply how far one pushes the wheel.

All of the above under consideration finding the perfect or near perfect vi for the job coupled with desire can make all the difference. I found a vox continental vi once that blew me away, the next thing I was carving out a highly credible renditions of some tunes by the Doors and others who used continentals during the 60's ... On my ztar no less. I was in heaven. Quite often I get the same sensation using GSI's VB3 I find a tone to love and it inspires me to coax the most out of it.
Jim Y
KVRist
 
316 posts since 29 Jun, 2008, from Mid Wales, UK.

Postby Jim Y; Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:18 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

After some searching around it does indeed seem to be based on the POG. So, looks like it's mostly built around pitch shift DSP. Tracking isn't an issue - it shifts what it gets to produce drawbar footages. There is some lag as there are buffers to fill.
Lemmy Koopa
KVRist
 
101 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby Lemmy Koopa; Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:55 pm Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

SLiC wrote:I don't believe there are any tracking issues as it's the actual guitar sound that is simply proceeded to sound like an organ, it should have no more issues with tracking than a delay pedal...just a different process. There is no pitch to midi or sound triggering...

I am buying one as soon as they hit the UK, be cool with my variax as I can take the guitar sound via the digital out and put the mag pickups to the pedal :)


Oooo, sorry to go off topic, but what Variax model do you have?

On topic: I really like the pedal, I honestly would consider getting it. Sounds a lot better than the garbage boss puts out to try to sound like an organ, what is it called, the multi overtone or something? Meh.
bill45
KVRian
 
1348 posts since 14 Jun, 2006

Postby bill45; Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:20 am Re: Electro harmonix B9 organ pedal for guitar

anyone get this yet?

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