What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

A reverb that not vanish

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

User avatar
Turello
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:57 pm A reverb that not vanish

I have 2 very old nearfields Fostex (when called Foster!)... now, If i put a send reverb on vocals, snare etc (usually 24/30%) and listen in SOLO all is perfect, when I leave the SOLO button reverb vanishing... I assume these nearfield are guilty but with Valhalla Shimmer (for example) and some other don't happens... I'm a maniac of plates and halls in some instruments and this has become a problems on Nuendo 5...
I can't buy other nearfields at moment and also I'm attached to these 2 monitors (tweeter not perfect but deep bass and precise mid)

any advice on other reverbs up to the task?

Thanks in advance and forgive my poor english (unfortunately not my first language)
sascha
KVRian
 
850 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from Berlin, Germany

Postby sascha; Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:18 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

Turello, you shouldn't blame your speakers or the software in the first place. What you encounter is most probably the masking effect, which is very pronounced with reverberation, but is generally something to learn and deal with when making music. Masking is often the no.1 error in mixing and divides bad or mediocre mixes from the good ones.

Many people run into that problem by not seperating the dry & wet signals enough, and by making the wet too diffusive. First aid: dial up the predelay, especially with vocals, 30-50ms is often no problem with medium halls or plates. This isolates the main signals from the reverb tail, so that no washy 'wall of sound' appears and the voice remains up-front and clear. This can still be a problem with up-tempo music, though; the more predelay, the more risk of messing with rhythm.

Then, consider making the reverb tail more sparse, dial in less density or diffusion. Diffusive reverb sounds pleasing when soloed but tends to be too washy and bulky in the mix. Analogy: it's like having to swallow a large and massive chunk of something which refuses to run down your throat... so keep it 'fluffy'.

Also, have an eye on the frequency response. A wide spectrum does rarely make sense with the wet signal. Usually, one cuts away stuff that's not needed. A reverb tail with cozy low end might sound fantastic in solo mode, but will interfere with the other (bass) instruments, so cut away everything that you don't need for the impression of 'reverb'. It's like making a sculpture: you remove stuff until you end up with what you want. Put this into focus, meaning: you can make the wet part louder this way and it won't interfere that much with the rest any longer.
Sascha Eversmeier
u-he | digitalfishphones | samplitude (past)
mystran
KVRAF
 
4128 posts since 11 Feb, 2006, from Helsinki, Finland

Postby mystran; Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:55 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

Sometimes it might be worth adjusting the predelay slowly near the desired range until the most pronounced energy peak from the reverb approximately aligns with the rhythm. This really needs to be set by ear (since such a peak is typically not right at the beginning of the tail), but when slowly adjusting the predelay, some settings will usually result in less rhythmic confusion than others.

But since sascha didn't mention this explicitly: the basic rule of thumb for predelay is that more predelay (within reason) moves the dry sound towards the front, while small predelay usually moves the sound in the back of the mix. Whether the actual reverb is obviously audible isn't even that important, the effect of the reflections will be perceived anyway. So it's critical to use some predelay for sounds that should be in front.

Finally, if you want the reverb tail to be explicitly audible, the easiest way to do that is to use a modulated reverb (and that's probably why you observed that Valhalla Shimmer didn't vanish like more static reverbs). Since modulation usually moves the reverb tail frequencies around, the brain doesn't usually mask them out as easily and you'll perceive the reverb tail partially as a separate sound. :)
Image <- plugins | forum
User avatar
xh3rv
KVRAF
 
1576 posts since 10 Dec, 2008, from Minneapolis

Postby xh3rv; Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:16 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

It can be very nice to EQ somewhere before a verb, but still on the verb's own chain, as well (e.g., channel 1: dry / send 1: eq->verb). Possibly more of the verb character gets through, and feels less drastically attenuated.
User avatar
Turello
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:18 pm Re: A reverb that not vanish

first of all thanks to everyone for these thought-provoking answers...

Sascha, really could a 24% (in send) create a masking effect??? :-O and also, I usually put the lead vocal very forward...
Just to us understand better, this is my archetype of reverb on vocals... ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsgdSpH_rsM ), this problem affect especially toms and snare and also i'm very violent with HPF and LPF and for example i not use reverb on electric ROCK bass...

Dear Mystran, you are as always enlightening and tomorrow I will not hesitate to try with your Abstract Chamber what you explain
here as it is also to use the reverb to create depth (what a nice word!)

xh3rv: In fact, until now I usually boosting treble because I think it is the only way but this may create other problems, for example: the snare shot when beat masking the guitar solo...
sascha
KVRian
 
850 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from Berlin, Germany

Postby sascha; Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:26 pm Re: A reverb that not vanish

Turello wrote:first of all thanks to everyone for these thought-provoking answers...

Sascha, really could a 24% (in send) create a masking effect??? :-O and also, I usually put the lead vocal very forward...


24% is a number hard to comment on through remote diagnosis... so I can only say: it depends ;)

Turello wrote:Just to us understand better, this is my archetype of reverb on vocals...


The example is a sparse mix, not much going on there. For instance, quite the opposite to a full-blown metal tune w. 10+ tracks of layered rhythm guitars heading for the 0dB mark, and someone playing the piano over it while the guttural voice of the front man needs to come through crystal clear...
The more distorted instruments you have, the harder it gets. With only a few - and clean - instruments it's a much easier job.

In the example, the reverb is a combi of reverb + delay, probably dly->rev. The delay makes it more pronounced, creates more attention than reverb alone. This relates to what I said above: make the reverb tail sparse and less diffuse to make it cut through. Generally, drums or anything transient, are probably best with diffuse reverb tails, as otherwise any audible echoic pattern creates 'holes' in the impulse response and makes the signal sound 'rough'. With vocals, or any more steady-state signal, the opposite holds true: less density/diffusion creates 'space', literally makes room for the sound. Like mystran said, modulation also helps, but should be used with caution. On recursive reverbs, modulation increases density over time by spreading out the echoes, but with long tails, chances are things become too dense again, so one has to outweigh things.

Oh, and we haven't talked about early reflections yet, only 'tail'. Our ears and brain detect spacial information (size/width) mainly through the first incoming echoes. That's why many reverbs have an ER-to-tail mix control. It's not important at all to have reverb tails in order to create 'space'.
[Real rooms have a smooth transition from ER to tail through propagating echoes, making the sound more dense over time. But, historically, the most prominent artificial reverb algos create density through allpasses and delays in series, but these had limited numbers and sizes (memory!) and therefore needed high feedback, thus tending to sound more like a 'block' of something. That's how seperate ERs came in along the way.]

Another thing: try ducking a reverb return (a comp on its output with the vox track as its sidechain). This way, the reverb remains quiter throughout the main vocal passage but becomes louder on pauses. Of course nonone forces you to only take the vox track as the key signal, so why not another instrument?

I'd recommend to invest some time and study production tricks, there's a lot you can read on that topic, and many helpful hands-on tutorials on youtube.
Sascha Eversmeier
u-he | digitalfishphones | samplitude (past)
User avatar
Turello
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:23 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

@Sascha: i've did an European school of Audio Technicians here in Sick-cily (but I also admit I'm so undisciplined because the room was full of girls who went to this school and I am easily distracted with their smiles!), anyway in analogic world, with a cheap\economic Lexicon\TC reverb hardware and a Mackie\Soundcraft Mixer (I supposed for tension and electricity) i've never had of this problems... this is very strange to me!
So I think I'm going back to go over some of the lessons of that school... :oops:

Thanks all for precious suggestions and it is an honor to speak with you because I use your digitalphisphones plugins... :tu:
User avatar
xh3rv
KVRAF
 
1576 posts since 10 Dec, 2008, from Minneapolis

Postby xh3rv; Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:17 pm Re: A reverb that not vanish

Turello wrote:xh3rv: In fact, until now I usually boosting treble because I think it is the only way but this may create other problems, for example: the snare shot when beat masking the guitar solo...


A nice thing with EQ-before-verb, it allows for some narrowly targeted, peaking boosts on e.g. the crispy part of a snare or some nearly ambient high frequencies on a guitar. The same can be done with EQ-after-verb but I think, the sort of spatial cues Sascha's excellent advice mentions get mangled a lot more this way. It's surprisingly different between EQ'ing verb input vs. verb output.
User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
 
4002 posts since 24 May, 2009, from A galaxy, far far away

Postby el-bo (formerly ebow); Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:26 pm Re: A reverb that not vanish

what a great set of concise info/tips. thanks :tu:
User avatar
Turello
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:29 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

@xh3rv: good idea (sure i'll try) but btw consider that the sending channel addict some db, just for example in rock music i usually don't go over 5 db peak on snare... could be become a problem not for ambiences\reverbs but for the mix, i hope you understand (Engl not my first language) what i wanna say
Winstontaneous
KVRian
 
515 posts since 14 Feb, 2006, from Berkeley, CA

Postby Winstontaneous; Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:43 am Re: A reverb that not vanish

Sascha/mystran, those are some awesome observations. I just got NI's Reverb Classic RC24 and RC48, my first "big-boy" reverbs, and it's fun to explore the effect of pre-delay and EQ on top-flight algorithms.

I must recommend Andy Farnell's awesome book "Designing Sound"because it covers not only physics and DSP, but also psychoacoustic phenomena like the masking discussed above. Knowing how we process what we hear is critical to making sound do what you want.
User avatar
Turello
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:43 pm Re: A reverb that not vanish

Winstontaneous: thanks for the precious information... Maybe I'll buy when it comes out the Italian edition... :-D

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Effects