Ableton Live Device Delay Compensation

[penguinfromdeep]

It's probably a very difficult issue for them to fix (well that's stating the obvious really, otherwise it would have been fixed already).. Maybe even needing a major rewrite? Maybe it won't happen

[ObsoleteAcc99]

It's probably a very difficult issue for them to fix (well that's stating the obvious really, otherwise it would have been fixed already).. Maybe even needing a major rewrite? Maybe it won't happen

i'd say that's why reason hasn't done it either. with the complexity available in ableton's routing and all those device interactions, it must be almost impossible to fix without a rewrite.

We don't have ANY pdc in reason though so i'd kill for even live's shitty implementation of it LOL. I started a topic at the PUF asking for tips on compensating automation in reason since there is no PDC for anything (but a plugin device to put in the delays and align stuff up, but this won't work for automation obviously) and i got jumped on and got told there was no problem with automation timing. It was like i was talking to a brick wall.

The thing is, ableton just really don't care deep down as it's not affecting their sales. Just as props don't care either. So the likelihood of it ever getting fixed is pretty much zero IMO.

[Ogopogo]

The thing is, ableton just really don't care deep down as it's not affecting their sales. Just as props don't care either. So the likelihood of it ever getting fixed is pretty much zero IMO.

Yeah, sales probably. But if Bitwig ever catches up to them, I'll guess you see it fixed then. That's the way it is with business. If they can get away with not investing in it, it's "Our customers don't need that." If they need an edge then "NEW IMPROVED MASTERING QUALITY AUDIO AND TIMING ENGINE IN LIVE 13."

Just like big telecom saying "our customers don't really need faster internet" so they don't have to invest in new infrastructure but then their marketing material stresses how fast their service is and how everything's easier with faster connection. It opens whole new worlds! It will turn your kids into MOZART or TESLA.

[Dazed Veins]

I understand why Bitwig has no public beta testers: they might work for Abe..

[Echoes in the Attic]

Thanks to Tronam for the info re: latency added being equivalent to the buffer size.

Here is the amended post.

At a sample rate of 44.1 kHz Ableton Live adds latency equivalent to your buffer size for every 3rd party plugin you put on a track. So, if you run a 512 sample buffer you get 512 samples (or 11.6 ms) of latency for every 3rd party plugin you put on the track, even for zero latency plugins. This is true if the plugin is turned on or off. Native devices don't suffer from this latency penalty.

If you add a plugin that adds latency then you have the latency of the plugin, plus the 512 samples Ableton adds for every 3rd party plugin.

For example, with a Ableton Live set at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and running a 512 sample buffer, create an audio channel using a clap or something with a clear transient. Then add an instance of Pro-Q 2 in Linear Phase "low" mode which has 3072 samples (about 70 ms) of latency at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. If you drop in an instance of LFOTool after Pro-Q 2 and turn on the scope, you will see the offset. Then set LFOTool offset to -3072 and you will see there is still uncorrected offset. Add -512 samples to LFTool offset for a total of -3584 samples and you will see the unreported latency is fully corrected.

Not just third party AU/VST. Max for Live audio devices suffer from this as well. Which is insane because many of them are meant as small utilities and if you're a M4L user you may be inclined to have many small devices loaded on a track.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

all ableton devices suffer from the problems.. the only difference is that the *factory* effects don't add any extra buffer latency based on sound card settings, per instance. They are still affected by timing problems and automation pdc etc etc.

Every single max 4 live device has latency, even a simple midi arp.

The way live handles plugins and latency is the worst thing i can think of of any daw in existence TBH.

[XorXisT]

all ableton devices suffer from the problems.. the only difference is that the *factory* effects don't add any extra buffer latency based on sound card settings, per instance. They are still affected by timing problems and automation pdc etc etc.

Every single max 4 live device has latency, even a simple midi arp.

The way live handles plugins and latency is the worst thing i can think of of any daw in existence TBH.

I always used Live (still version 8 Suite) with near zero latency plugins and lowest possible asio4all latency settings. I heard all the complains about Live's pdc, but haven't had any issues at that time.

Then 1 day I was watching a youtube tutorial and wanted to replicate in Live, but asio4all can't use more than 1 app at the same time, so I changed Live to mme/directx windows drivers with 90 or so ms of latency. It was a shock : lots of sync issues, and tal filter 2 was like half a beat later. the moment I went back to asio, all issues stopped.

Long story short:

Live's devices only + lowest possible asio latency samples = good to go.

High latency 3rd party plugs + high asio latency samples = experimental new type of music.

So I think Live is more a performance type of host with studio production features than the other way around.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Still love Live

[Echoes in the Attic]

all ableton devices suffer from the problems.. the only difference is that the *factory* effects don't add any extra buffer latency based on sound card settings, per instance. They are still affected by timing problems and automation pdc etc etc.

Yeah if they introduce latency like a lookahead limiter or a compression or something.

Every single max 4 live device has latency, even a simple midi arp.

No just the audio effects, not the midi ones. Which is still bad enough.

The way live handles plugins and latency is the worst thing i can think of of any daw in existence TBH.

Agreed.