Serum vs. Nave?

[MorpherX]

Nave has no chance against Serum, neither featurewhise nore soundwhise, it's even is not worth to mention it, and beside this Nave is dongle-ware.
I would advise not to buy Nave but serum, if someone should decide about the two.

The Beta of Nave is still running and there is a NDA so i would not be allowed to proof the opposite by e.g. posting audio demos yet...
Currently i could only really discuss what was already published in the public (at the Walodrf website, at Twitter or in the videos)

Anyway we already had a similar discussion while PPG Wavemapper 2 was released and you ractions there were as aggressive as you current post here.
That you mentuion that Nave is "not worth to mention" shows that that you have no clue about it IMO.


Ingo

The thematic of this thread is Serum "versus" Nave.
And the two feature Serum not has (Arpeggiator and Speech Synth ) can achieved with Serum via LFO as ARP and Resynthesis.
I got very good results with speech resynthesis in the Table-Editor of Serum.
I also have heard sounds from Nave-IOS and could not find something that blow me away or I have never heard.
I don't think that Nave VSTi is bad, but regarding wavetable synths Serum is at the moment state of art in my view.

[T-CM11]

To each their own method of choosing their instruments.
I like trying the demos, and after a while programming, the one that gives me the best results and the most fun achieving them is the winner. Others like features per dollar/euro calculations. Whatever does it for you.

[MorpherX]

To each their own method of choosing their instruments.
I like trying the demos, and after a while programming, the one that gives me the best results and the most fun achieving them is the winner. Others like features per dollar/euro calculations. Whatever does it for you.

In my view features, userfriendly usage, not to overcomplecated structur and sound quality are the most important things ragarding VSTis.
It don't think in features per dollar.

But Mr. Ingonator, for example, is posting here as if he would be a normal user, but he works for Waldorf and therefore he can't be objective with the thematic of this thread in mind. He is posting here with money in mind.

[Caine123]

to all people who say you cannot judge from the skype demo, sure! but some of you have the iOS version i guess?

and from the theoretically features there are some comparisons already doable i think, of course the end result needs to be compared when it's out .

but pricewise i see Serum not more expensive and so far i dont see what makes NAVE more special atm, SEE, but not HEARD yet !

so mostly the iOS people can tell their experiences .

[Ingonator]

Actually the arrangement of the GUi controls is quite different compared to the iPad version. For all additional tabs except the wavetable editor the main controls like oscillators, filter and mixer will always stay on top.
There also seem to be a few changes in the presets browser.


A bigger selection of feature requests has been already implemented while some of them are maybe not too obvious and more related to using the plugin in a DAW than using it on an iPad (e.g. scroll wheel support for certain features).

For example one of the features i requested and which is now implemented is a numerical display of the values for the faders in the mixer and the envelopes. The values are displayed when clicking on a fader or moving it.
Another was the ability to also import 32-bit WAV files which did not work properly at the beginning (16-bit and 24-bit worked from beginning on). This makes it possible to directly import WAV wavetables of e.g. Serum and also Codex.
Also the ability to reset controls to default by double-clicking is implemented now.

Maybe also some of the updated features will be included in a future update of the iOS version.

There is a bunch of feature requests not implemented yet but at the moment i am not allowed to talk about details of all those. Anyway one request from me is to add more wavetable editing features.


Today i also had a nice experience when using a wavetable based on an imported sample and tweaking the "Spectrum" parameter. This resulted in a quite big change of the sound of the whole wavetable.

It is also nice using the VA oscillator with the "überwave" feature (could create a nice Supersaw but also use other waveforms) in combination with teh two wavetable oscillators. In serum when using a Supersaw like sound you "loose" one of the wavetable oscillators. Of course you could also use the VA oscillator as a Sub-oscillator additionally to both wavetable Oscs.
In the mixer you could also add two Ring modulations, one for both wavetable oscs and another for wavetable osc 1 and the VA oscillator. This way with the mixer you could mix up to 5 sound sources where the VA oscillator could also be a noise oscillator (two diffent noise "colours").

You could combine the Überwave oscillator (up to 8 detuned waveforms, works only for the VA oscillator) with a global Unison (up to 4 voices, works for all sound sources in the mixer)


For me one major feature (even if others disagree) is a huge collection of nice and actually usable Waldorf wavetables. Same i could also say about e.g. Largo and PPG wave 3.V (the around 100 new wavetables included there compared to PPG 2.V are not included with any other Waldorf wavetable synths so far) but also about PPG Wavemapper 2 by Wolfgang Palm.


last but not least the 3D wavetable editor offers some options for editing a wavetable that are not possible with any other wavetable synth.

[EvilDragon]

But Mr. Ingonator, for example, is posting here as if he would be a normal user, but he works for Waldorf and therefore he can't be objective with the thematic of this thread in mind. He is posting here with money in mind.

And you're here on KvR to trash any synth that IS NOT Serum. It's highly annoying and you should stop doing it.

[T-CM11]

But Mr. Ingonator, for example, is posting here as if he would be a normal user, but he works for Waldorf and therefore he can't be objective with the thematic of this thread in mind. He is posting here with money in mind.

And he makes no secret of his Waldorf involvement - so there's no secret agenda. He can't be objective? No one here is objective - we're not talking hard science here. If you want objective, just read the feature lists, and buy or don't buy.
Where do you read Ingo's sales pitch? Where does he say that "his product" is better than the other? I'd rather read his informed posts than those of others who like the spread their gut feelings around.

[Caine123]

ingo is a real nice guy, he helped me decide on nemesis (even he worked on patches there which i got then) and i dont regret it. even if he works for waldorf (what he is doing, why not) you could see if he advertises with money in mind or not , if he would say serum sucks, nave is better then i wouldnt take him serious anymore. but when he has legit points you should check when the demo is released you can compare those objectively (what i will do too! cause im not convinced of nave yet so far what i saw which would get me to buy it instead of serum!).

[rod_zero]

Nave GUI also seems good, not as good at Serum, but it is above average. If waldorf made the iPad app able to control the VST that would make it quite nice to use, almost as hardware.

[FarleyCZ]

last but not least the 3D wavetable editor offers some options for editing a wavetable that are not possible with any other wavetable synth.

Are you sure? Wavetable editor in Serum is extremely well equipped, suporting several ways of input, spectral modelling, hand draw, noise modulation etc...

[Ingonator]

last but not least the 3D wavetable editor offers some options for editing a wavetable that are not possible with any other wavetable synth.

Are you sure? Wavetable editor in Serum is extremely well equipped, suporting several ways of input, spectral modelling, hand draw, noise modulation etc...

The point is that in the 3D editor you could select a certain area of partials and waveforms (e.g. partials 10-16 for waveforms 30-40) and do transformations like changing their level, shifting those in the wavetable (in two direction), rotating them (Gryate feature) or do a Permuation of the partials in that area (the level and amount of the partials stays teh same but the position is randomizes/permuated inside the editing area ; the permuation effect depends on the amount setting).

You could limited the selection in the editor to a single waveform or even a single partial.

Hopefully there will be also a few more editing features in the final version. For example currently ther Level feature work in a relative manner which means you could not change partials with a amplitude/level of 0.
I asked for the ability of switching this to an absolute mode to add new partials from scratch.
Anyway currently you could add new partials using the "Random" feature" and the change the level of certain new partials created this way if you think their level is wrong.

There is no real need for smooth interpolations inside the wavetable as the playback in te synth already seems to be quite smooth. Same is also true for some other wavetable synths like e.g. PPG Wavemapper 2 + PPG Wavegenerator and also Waves Codex.
Actually you could create a wavetable with only 4 wavefoms there and stil have a smooth playback.

You could also mark all partials and waveforms in the wavetable and shift the whole table if you want a certain waveform of the table at position 1 in the table.
As a custom and/or edited wavetable is saved with the patches you do not destroy the original wavetable with such editing. Of cousr you could also export the edited table (in *.WTB format) if you need it for other patches.


In Serum you could edit single wavefoms in the wavetable but not select and edit a certain area of the full wavetable in a 3D display like in Nave.

[FarleyCZ]

No, but in Serum, you can build the waveform partial by partial, morph waveforms to achieve smooth playback (volume-based or spectral-based morph), apply filtering and precise per-partial phase modulation. You can leave amplitudes and randomize partial or vice-versa.

You can add noise to existing shape in desired amount, so the high end of the spectrum has some information to work with. It makes a huge difference on basses.

You can import wave files either by averaging of the sample's pitch (the auto-tune way), by zero-cross detection (for precise import of vintage analog wavetables) of by FFT resynthesis.

And about multiple waveform edditing - it's limited, but possible, if you rightclick the textbox for inputing mathematic formulas. (also sweet geeky thing btw)

And after you've made your wavetable, there's buch of stuff you can shape the waveform further by all kinds od effects and modulations. Bending, mirroring, PWM, AM, FM ... ... ...

So yeah, Serum's 3D view is only eyecandy, but it also has a few features different frm Nave or Codex. I wouldn't call any of them superior to the other. It's just that huge level of nerdism and geekestry that wins it with Serum for me.

[Ingonator]

It is also possible to create a wavetable in the free Audio Term wavetable tool, export as a WAV wavetable (or as Serum format which is WAV too) and then import into Nave. The if you like you could further edit it in the 3D editor.

Wavetables in Nave do not have a fixed amount of waveforms. It could be 10 but also 200 or more.
The scale of the waveform selection knob in the osc section is automatically adjusted to the amount of waveforms in the wavetable so it does not have a fixed size like e.g. 1 to 64, 1 to 100 or 0 to 1.
As the waveform numbers could also have decimal pints like e.g. 30.4 you could also access interpolations of two waveforms (same is possible in e.g. Waves Codex).

As already mentioned for a smooth playback interpolation does not have to be in the wavetable itself but is also done by the sound engine.
When i did some wavetables for Wavemapper 2 Wolfgang Palm told me that inserting interpolations is not always necessary (i did this with the corresponding feature in Audio Term). In the Wavegenerator wavetable editor this option to add interpolation is missing while you could use a special mode to record what you draw in the partials editor as a series of multiple waveforms.
What Wolfgang also told me is that while (at least with the new PPG synths and also some others) you don't need many interpolations inside the wavetable you should be careful with which waveforms you use for a wavetable in terms of a smooth playback of the whole table. For me this is still the most difficult task. One option could be to just add one or a few partials with each additional waveform. This could lead to nice results with just 8 waveforms if the waveforms are selected correctly. If the waveforms or the harmonic content are too different you just get "digital noise" when payingb the whole table.

One option in Nave to add small amounts of such "digital noise" is use small amounts of the Permuation feature at certain ares of a table. i am still experimenting with this myself.

Wavetables that contain big amounts of really different waveforms could be useful for using single waveforms or maybe scan through a small selection but they are not actually useful for scanning trough the whole table.


It could be also interesting to further edit wavetables created by the text to speech feature by either editing partials in the 3D editor or by changing the harmonics with the "Spectrum" knob (and the addition "Noisy" + "Brilliance" knobs). This way it maybe no longer sounds like actual speech but could resukt in interesting rhytmic sounds (for example with using spcaes in teh entered text for creating a "gated" sound). For speech sounds the "travel" feature in the osc section seems to be better than an envelope as the Travel feature plays a loop when the has wavetable ended (the value if the Travel feature represents the playback speed).
Of coutrse you could also try to use an envelope in loop mode.
Currently i am exploring several options like this but also using imported samples.


With the "Expand/contract" editing feature for the marked area (which couldbe the whole wavetable or only a small part) you could either both increase the level of bigger partials and reduce the level of smaller ones or with a negative amount set the level of all existing partials (not those wit ha level of 0) in a wavetable to the same value (with a maximum negative amount).


Last but not least in Nave you could create a wavetable from scratch by first marking the whole table and setting all levels to 0. The using the "Random" feature you could add single (or multiple ) new partials and then edit the level of those. Hopefully in the future this could be also possible with a different mode of the Level edit feature (with both a "relative" as it is currently and "absolute" mode).
Shifting the new partials in two dimensions (either to another waveform or to another partial number) is possible too.

[Dasheesh]

I am not going to read this thread, I would wind up banging my head on the wall (and it would hurt). Just remember half the people on this forum are trying to sell you something, half of the other half have no idea what they are saying. Stop relying on others to make your decisions.

[Ameyah Audio]

which protection is Nave using? i know waldorf used some elicensor crap.
or is it so easy like with serum, that you only enter the serial and you can start with the synth and have everything unlocked and can use it until the sun dies?