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The quick answer to "what's wrong with looping 5 bars when you want to loop 4" is that 5 and 4 are different numbers. I want to loop 4 bars. I might not be recording a part that is only 4 bars long - it might be 16 bars long, with those 4 bars repeated 4 times. I might not even yet know how long the part is going to be. How do I repeat the same 4 bars 4 times in a 4+1 bar loop?

The other answer is that having a sudden break that you don't want interrupts what is called "flow" - this is a state you enter into when fully immersed in something, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29.


One bar of silence or more for a pick up obviously makes sense in some contexts, particularly when you have a pick up such as the vocals you mention before. Vocals also have a clearly define linear progression; it is important the the words follow in a specific order. So I used this technique (in Edison) just last week to record 3 verses one after the other by looping the verse with two bars playing before the start of each verse because the first words fall prior to the first bar of the verse. So this method makes perfect sense in the right contexts (and is by no means new to me). I already knew exactly how long each verse was - because I'd written the lyrics to them and they were only so long.

But there are other cases where I simply want to be able to jam for 2-5 minutes over the same loop.
Use Case 1: Composition from a blank slate
When: Writing a new song
Aim: Come up with the basic building blocks of a song

I'll typically lay down a basic 4 bar beat and will then jam over it on guitar/bass (or keys but that's MIDI and not the issue). I want this loop to keep playing while I jam, and try out different ideas while recording them. A sudden dropout or a bar of silence completely destroys flow, ripping you out of the creative process. As a musician, surely you understand the importance of groove? It might take a while to find the groove you're looking for; you don't get into the groove if you're contantly stopping and starting. And when jotting down rough ideas, it doesn't matter if your loops aren't completely clean with notes hanging over from the previous loop (if that's what you're concerned about). This can normally be fixed/mitigated with a minor bit of editing and anyway, these aren't ever going to be the final takes. Instead I'll go through my 3 minutes looking for those takes where I like the groove, and take out a couple of those. Then I'll record the next instrument in the same manner. Once the basic melodic groove is in place (guitars, bass, possibly vocal placeholders "la la la") I'll go back and rework the drum beat and all other MIDI tracks so that everything fits the groove I've come up with. Then when I have my beat and other elements in place and everything grooving nicely, I'll re-record each part properly and cleanly (and normally linearly!).

Use Case 2: Tape is always running
When: A bunch of people are jamming
Aim: Record ideas as they occur for later review

Especially when jamming with other people, you'll often just want to hit record and jam out - you have no idea how long you're going to jam for, and you might as well record everything to review later. Hard disks are cheap, the Del key is easy to access, so who cares if you don't record anything worthwhile. Set up a basic beat, repeat it ad inifinitum and jam over it to your heart's content. If you come up with some great ideas, you have them captured and can use them as a basis. Again, having a bar of silence won't work and will destroy any semblance of creativity; audio dropouts both disrupt the flow and mean the recordings are worthless. The only alternative is to repeat the beat 29892489233 times in the playlist.

Use Case 3: I'm a poor guitar soloist
When: I need a guitar solo
Aim: Hide the fact that I can't solo

I've never been a lead guitarist and don't get off on sitting at home alone playing back other people's solos on YouTube. So I'm primarily a rhythm guitarist. I can kinda fudge solos, but I can in no way simply hit record and play a brilliant solo in one go. Instead, I'll jam over the instrumental part for a long time, and then will take the best parts from the various takes and put them together. Having a bar of silence again ruins the flow - and again, if the instrumental part ends up being 16 bars, a bar of silence every 5 bars is a no go. Also, recording a guitar solo part means you don't normally have to worry about finding suitable places to cut the take, as there are natural pauses (unless you believe a guitar solo is about hitting as many notes as you can in as little time as possible). In this case I'll normally use the parts I record in a loop as my final takes too. Sure, it's a crux, but isn't that why it's there? To make things easier?

Use Case 4: Repetition is everywhere in music
When: A part of the song consists of the same element repeated multiple times, e.g. a verse based around several repetitions of the same progression
Aim: Get a nice take that lasts several times the length of the loop, and the whole length of the part that's repeated multiple times

A verse often consists of 2-8 repetitions of the same background. I ideally want a good take that's exactly as long as the part I'm recording. But what if I screw up in the first loop? By your rationale, I'd wait 7 repetitions, then count in a bar, then retry. That's a time waster. I can just as well start again from the beginning with the second repetition, and keep the take lasting until the start of the ninth repetition. Who cares if my final take is loops 2-9 not 1-8? But I can't do this if there's a bar of silence or audio dropouts part way through.


What's common to all these use cases is that I'm not looking to record four bars. I'm looking to repeat four bars. I may want to record 8 bars, 16 bars, 32 bars. I may not know how many bars I'm going to record, particularly in the case of a solo.


Now I'm definitely not the only person in the world who likes to record my ideas as I work. Maybe it's just restricted to the people I know personally. Maybe we're the only people who think that stopping/restarting can be a massive workflow killer, and that it's much easier to deliver a good performance when you're in the moment and only concentrating on that. This has nothing to do with an inability to count a bar of rests (strange that you'd think this is the most likely thing to be tripping people up). Now I do know that a lot of classically trained musicians can't work like this - tell them to "jam in A" and they are completely out of their depth. So maybe that's why you've never worked this way. I've worked with loads of musicians for whom this approach was perfectly natural: get in a sax player, tell him to groove away for 5 minutes and then chop and edit the results to taste. The sax player's not like "woah I need a bar of rest, I can't jam for 5 minutes". Tell a guitarist to solo, and he might wank away for 2 minutes, delivering a perfect solo. You may have no idea beforehand how long he's going to solo for; the last thing you want is for a sudden one bar break to appear just as he's reaching his climax, throwing him out of his flow and destroying the solo.

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I know the workarounds, so don't tell me to loop 16 bars if I want to record 16 bars. As I said, I may not yet know how long the verse or solo is going to be, because I'm in the process of writing the song. Getting a studio musician to come in and record a part over an otherwise complete piece is a completely different kettle of fish.

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Also I don't see why implementing HD recording is such a big deal. The technology has been around for 20 years. I don't see how FL's inability to do what any other DAW can do (and have done since day 1) should be dismissed with "you're doing it wrong" when the implementation is clearly what's wrong. There shouldn't be dropouts - whatever your workflow. How are dropouts really acceptable? Is this really just because you can't be bothered to argue with gol again? :)

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pc2000 wrote:
hibidy wrote:I'm waiting for FL 13. But then again, it will be just like all the others.........senseless, buggy, CPU hog, and utterly useless. Oh....sorry for my "sophia" moment, but after 9 versions, I think I'm entitled.
Are you still using XP?
No he is just a well-known troll inhabits in every forums :hihi:

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mostly works. will have to wait and try it on my main studio machine with a real mic at some point.

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Image-Line wrote:
sjm wrote:
Image-Line wrote: Why is it a problem for you, have you actually tried it, of course it's loop recording. In my experience it leads to much better takes with grace notes & lead-in available for inclusion in the final comp.

If all that doesn't apply then you don't care about losing 20 ms from the start of the clip and you can have your 4 bar loop.

Regards Scott
Are you being serious?
I am trying to understand what is wrong with a 5 bar loop to record 4 bars of content?

Most people don't have problems with the Playlist loop recording process. But if they do, and it seems you do, then you need to add a lead-bar. So what problem does this cause exactly? Because your protests don't make sense to me (as a classically trained musician). Almost all musical performances require counting out rests and don't involve playing/singing every note of every bar. I have never seen a 1 bar rest cause problems for any musician.
if I'm looping a four bar pattern for the verse, and screw up the first bar, I might want to take bars 2-5 rather than 1-4. If there's suddenly a 1 bar break, that's not loop recording.
Why not? It's a loop and you are recording multiple takes over it. If you really can't count out 1 bar of silence, then play (or sing) some lead-in riff on bar 1. Please give it a try and come back and then tell me that it sucks, and why.

Regards Scott
I totally agree with Scott here, loop recording is loop recording. It means recording a section over and over again. And personally, I appreciate (even need) an extra bar in front to prepare for the actual recording.
My other host is Bruce Forsyth

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spaceman wrote:I totally agree with Scott here, loop recording is loop recording. It means recording a section over and over again. And personally, I appreciate (even need) an extra bar in front to prepare for the actual recording.
I don't use FL Studio but based purely on what's been discussed here it seems to me that loop recording just doesn't work properly. Yes it's good there is a workaround but adopting that and claiming that it's the correct way of doing it is just Stockholm Syndrome.

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spaceman wrote:
Image-Line wrote:
sjm wrote:
Image-Line wrote: Why is it a problem for you, have you actually tried it, of course it's loop recording. In my experience it leads to much better takes with grace notes & lead-in available for inclusion in the final comp.

If all that doesn't apply then you don't care about losing 20 ms from the start of the clip and you can have your 4 bar loop.

Regards Scott
Are you being serious?
I am trying to understand what is wrong with a 5 bar loop to record 4 bars of content?

Most people don't have problems with the Playlist loop recording process. But if they do, and it seems you do, then you need to add a lead-bar. So what problem does this cause exactly? Because your protests don't make sense to me (as a classically trained musician). Almost all musical performances require counting out rests and don't involve playing/singing every note of every bar. I have never seen a 1 bar rest cause problems for any musician.
if I'm looping a four bar pattern for the verse, and screw up the first bar, I might want to take bars 2-5 rather than 1-4. If there's suddenly a 1 bar break, that's not loop recording.
Why not? It's a loop and you are recording multiple takes over it. If you really can't count out 1 bar of silence, then play (or sing) some lead-in riff on bar 1. Please give it a try and come back and then tell me that it sucks, and why.

Regards Scott
I totally agree with Scott here, loop recording is loop recording. It means recording a section over and over again. And personally, I appreciate (even need) an extra bar in front to prepare for the actual recording.
Maybe you do need an extra bar, the rest of the world wants to choose what it wants too, loop recording does not work properly if it HAS to have an extra bar, that is pure nonsense and yet another IL "Our way is right, well until we change it to the other way, then our original way should never be mentioned" haha
Duh

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bungle wrote: Maybe you do need an extra bar, the rest of the world wants to choose what it wants too, loop recording does not work properly if it HAS to have an extra bar, that is pure nonsense and yet another IL "Our way is right, well until we change it to the other way, then our original way should never be mentioned" haha
I never said anything other than this is a non issue. This has nothing to do with being 'correct'.

Lets break it down..

1. For most people loop recording in the Playlist works fine.

2. For people whom it does not, they can add a lead in bar.

3. If you don't like that, then you have Edison that has awesome loop-record workflow.

Nothing stops the necessary task of loop recording. The claim earlier was that it could not be done (at all) without Edison.

Will it alway be this way? Probably not. But until then, the life and music goes on.

Regards Scott
Image-Line are proud developers of - FL Studio, FL Studio Mobile & Audio Plugins.

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Image-Line wrote:3. If you don't like that, then you have Edison that has awesome loop-record workflow.
As this has come up before, I'd just like to reiterate that Edison is really awesome in many respects. And its loop recording allows me to record how I want to. I just wish its functionality (or a pared-down version - I wouldn't care that much about the effects etc.) was integrated directly in the playlist with the takes automatically placed one above the other in the same playlist track.

If you had the functionality of Edison (with D2D recording to avoid memory problems) in the playlist, you'd have the best of Edison's recording with all the benefits of in situ editing. I think recording your tracks to the playlist directly (without dropouts) and being able to cut and move in the playlist (providing you with context, which I find important) is the better approach to these kind of recordings. If I could then double-click on an audio part and have it pop up in Edison with all the additional tools, effects, regions etc. at my disposal, that'd be really awesome.

As it is. I use Edison, but find that it really could be integrated better, as it feels like a separate tool (which it is) rather than an integrated part of the FL workflow.

In fact one of the frustrating aspects for me at least, is that you're so close to getting it right, but each of the two approaches (playlist vs Edison) lacks something from the other that you'd want to have. If you took the best of each approach and merged them into a seamless whole...
... I'd probably be going on about other improvements you could make :D
Last edited by sjm on Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Image

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This topic is pretty funny. People asking for featurs and Image Line are like 'LOL why you want that?'

Weird stuff. If you can't/wont implement something you can just say it's not a priority or whatever. The responses in here pretty much imply that the poster is dumb for wanting different time signatures or dropout free loop recording.

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tooneba wrote:
pc2000 wrote:
hibidy wrote:I'm waiting for FL 13. But then again, it will be just like all the others.........senseless, buggy, CPU hog, and utterly useless. Oh....sorry for my "sophia" moment, but after 9 versions, I think I'm entitled.
Are you still using XP?
No he is just a well-known troll inhabits in every forums :hihi:
:?

mmmmmm....I wonder .... :dog:
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing

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GuitarGuy420 wrote:This topic is pretty funny. People asking for featurs and Image Line are like 'LOL why you want that?'

Weird stuff. If you can't/wont implement something you can just say it's not a priority or whatever. The responses in here pretty much imply that the poster is dumb for wanting different time signatures or dropout free loop recording.
At least Image-Line will engage you in conversation. Try to get a response from any other manufacturer.

I'd suggest you read my last comment above.

Regards Scott
Image-Line are proud developers of - FL Studio, FL Studio Mobile & Audio Plugins.

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I love FL Studio, but..don't you guys pretend you are the only ones to engage in conversations with customers. That argument is getting old already, and very far from the truth. I've seen plenty of other amazing manufacturers doing the same around here, and even better, because they actually pay attention to customers demands and requests. You guys tend to be all negative, stubborn and reject everything attitude. Most of the time it takes a whole lot of begging, bitching and moaning to gol, so he will eventually implement features that producers seem to need in the future versions of FL Studio. And I am not saying that you should do everything your customers wish, no... just to take them into consideration, in a positive way, at least. It's basic customer support.
Last edited by Yorrrrrr on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:17 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Guys if you don't like FL just choose another Daw. I wasn't happy with some lacking features and then switched daw. Now i'm happy, enjoy my production time and my songs sounds better. Never look back since then. :tu:

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:hihi:

No offense, but it's probably easier to "switch" if you aren't paying for any of them. :lol: What daw products do you actually own, as in "have actually purchased"?

We already know you're using a S1 crack. You got the FL Studio crack too? :hihi:

Or did you pay for FL like me and most others here?

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