Here i am, sorry for being late.
Sure, i'm interested in that sounds, thanks! Very courious to see how they're made.
About the DX7 one, do you think Dexed could replicate it without going to a soundfont?
how to get this 80s lead guitar and playing?
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
I haven't tried Dexed. Is it a 4-operator? I have NI's FM8 which is great, it can do amazing things you'd probably never be able to do with the original Yamahas, but it hasn't got the dynamics balls of the real thing. You can hear what I mean on that tune I posted above. In my experience, certain Yamaha FM sounds can be done in the digital domain and certain others can't. The guitar sounds that I liked in the DX series cannot be done in the digital domain in any way other than using DXulator based on my experience (but I'd love to be wrong some day).
So I will explain how to get these two sounds. But I have to go cook for my family so I'll be back later. Sorry about that.
So I will explain how to get these two sounds. But I have to go cook for my family so I'll be back later. Sorry about that.
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
No, it is a DX7 emulator (still in development phase, but pretty functional).Gonga wrote:I haven't tried Dexed. Is it a 4-operator?
You can look at his own thread.
By chance, it is also the choosen synth for this month One Synth Contest #74.
I don't know if a 6-op can reproduce 4-op sounds, and i don't have any original DX7 to compare with, but Dexed sounds pretty good for me.
There's also an update of Oxe, another free FM synth which is'nt an emulator, but it is "flexible" enough to build your own algorythm.
Now, being me not a FM expert (look at my signature and you'll know from where i come
) i can't really judge that FM synth by comparison, and i don't know if they can works for our purposes here.Thanks for your time.
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
OK, first I'll start with the FM "Jazz Guitar" sound Jan Hammer made famous with Miami Vice. The tune I posted above contains a middle section where I play a Yamaha TX-802, which sounds much like a DX. You note the attack is clear and intense, and the dynamics are extreme. You cannot get that sound using NI FM8. When you load up that patch in FM8, what you get is a mushy, distorted-sounding attack, and the dynamics are much less. Based on that thread you linked to, it looks like Dexed is having the same problem as the others - DX patches sound different than a DX.
I have tried numerous FM plugins, and I find they all lack the ability to reproduce this patch. So what you might want to try is to download the patch (they are all free to download all over the Internet), load it up in Dexed, and compare to the DX. I will post a raw TX-802 sample here later for you to compare with.
My solution was that I found a freeware application called DXulator which convert the Jazz Guitar patch to sfz format, and it sounds like a real DX, significantly better than any FM plugin I have heard. IT HAS BALLS.
http://home.vodafonethuis.nl/dxulator/
What it does is convert DX patches to soundfont files, specifically sfz files (not sf2, which is not as flexible) which can then be played in any sfz-file player (there are many, some are free). One advantage is that sfz players are easier to manipulate thn FM synths - they have ADSRs, filters, etc. You even create a special version of any DX patch yourself - such as the Jazz Guitar one I created which has a shorter decay and will knock your socks off! (samples will be posted soon). In other words, you can take your favorite FM sounds, and improve them any way you like using the sfz player of choice.
There's always a catch. The catch is that some patches do not come out sounding the same after conversion. But in my experience, strangely, it's the ones that FM plugs can't do that do come out right!
OK, I'll post samples here later. Then I'll get into the sync sweep guitar - in my opinion the single best "guitar" patch a synthesizer player could ever hope for. If you respect Jan Hammer, then it'll be enough to know that this was his primary guitar sound...the one he used on the Miami Vice Theme. It's freaking powerful stuff. Stay tuned.
I'd like to take a moment to add something of my synth philosophy here. There are many amazing sample libraries now. Take a look at Orangetree. Wow. If what you want is to "fool" people into thinking you're playing a guitar, and you're willing to put in a lot of time to learn the techniques, go for it. I love that stuff. On the other hand, that's not ultimately what I have ever wanted. What I want is the easiest and most natural way to achieve the expressive capability of a guitar, and the powerful sound, but while sounding different - like me. Like a synth. It's different than guitar and I think, the equal of a guitar in many respects. Whereas a sampled guitar will never achieve what you could with the real thing imo (unless you try to do things a guitar cannot, which is difficult but probably possible). Anyway, sync sweep gives the analog synthesis the power of an electric lead guitar but it sounds different - and in some ways, it's better because it's different, and will allow you to tweak it to create "your sound." Now that's something.
I have tried numerous FM plugins, and I find they all lack the ability to reproduce this patch. So what you might want to try is to download the patch (they are all free to download all over the Internet), load it up in Dexed, and compare to the DX. I will post a raw TX-802 sample here later for you to compare with.
My solution was that I found a freeware application called DXulator which convert the Jazz Guitar patch to sfz format, and it sounds like a real DX, significantly better than any FM plugin I have heard. IT HAS BALLS.
http://home.vodafonethuis.nl/dxulator/
What it does is convert DX patches to soundfont files, specifically sfz files (not sf2, which is not as flexible) which can then be played in any sfz-file player (there are many, some are free). One advantage is that sfz players are easier to manipulate thn FM synths - they have ADSRs, filters, etc. You even create a special version of any DX patch yourself - such as the Jazz Guitar one I created which has a shorter decay and will knock your socks off! (samples will be posted soon). In other words, you can take your favorite FM sounds, and improve them any way you like using the sfz player of choice.
There's always a catch. The catch is that some patches do not come out sounding the same after conversion. But in my experience, strangely, it's the ones that FM plugs can't do that do come out right!
OK, I'll post samples here later. Then I'll get into the sync sweep guitar - in my opinion the single best "guitar" patch a synthesizer player could ever hope for. If you respect Jan Hammer, then it'll be enough to know that this was his primary guitar sound...the one he used on the Miami Vice Theme. It's freaking powerful stuff. Stay tuned.
I'd like to take a moment to add something of my synth philosophy here. There are many amazing sample libraries now. Take a look at Orangetree. Wow. If what you want is to "fool" people into thinking you're playing a guitar, and you're willing to put in a lot of time to learn the techniques, go for it. I love that stuff. On the other hand, that's not ultimately what I have ever wanted. What I want is the easiest and most natural way to achieve the expressive capability of a guitar, and the powerful sound, but while sounding different - like me. Like a synth. It's different than guitar and I think, the equal of a guitar in many respects. Whereas a sampled guitar will never achieve what you could with the real thing imo (unless you try to do things a guitar cannot, which is difficult but probably possible). Anyway, sync sweep gives the analog synthesis the power of an electric lead guitar but it sounds different - and in some ways, it's better because it's different, and will allow you to tweak it to create "your sound." Now that's something.
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
OK, I found a few old links at my domain with pertinent stuff.
Here's an example of the original Jazz Guitar patch, converted with DXulator, and played with a soundfont player:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/DX7Jaz ... ndfont.mp3
It sounds like a real DX! You cannot get that clear, dynamic high-frequency transient attack with any FM plugin that I know of.
And here's the same patch, modified to have a shorter release:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Short- ... opZone.mp3
Here's a link to the soundfont I created. You're free to use it if you like that famous sound. You'll need an sfz player.
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/JAZZGUITR.zip
Here are all the original DX factory patch banks, including the Jazz Guitar patch:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/DX7%20 ... 20Patches/
And here's a link to a rare DX patch called Activate, that was used in Jan Hammer's famous "Rum Cay" tune.
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/ACTIVATE-1.syx
Here's a tune I did using a soundfont version of "Activate" for both bass and lead lines:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Activate.mp3
You hear that intense attack? This patch also just doesn't sound anything like that when played with a plugin FM synth.
I used a bit of flanger for these. The free flanger I use is TAL Flanger:
http://kunz.corrupt.ch/products/tal-effects
When you turn up the "delay" on TAL-Flanger (most flange plugs don't even offer a delay knob) along with feedback is when you hear it's uniquely amazing sounds. Settings:
And of course many people put a bit of cabinet distortion on the guitar patch. You could also use a wah wah pedal (or a filter plugin set to bandpass mode and sweep the frequency- same thing). That's if you want the types of sounds in this thread and want to use a FM-type generator to do it.
So tell me what you think. Then I'll do sync sweep "guitar," which really is my specialty. Lastly, I could try to reproduce the sound in the OP's example using a VA.
Here's an example of the original Jazz Guitar patch, converted with DXulator, and played with a soundfont player:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/DX7Jaz ... ndfont.mp3
It sounds like a real DX! You cannot get that clear, dynamic high-frequency transient attack with any FM plugin that I know of.
And here's the same patch, modified to have a shorter release:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Short- ... opZone.mp3
Here's a link to the soundfont I created. You're free to use it if you like that famous sound. You'll need an sfz player.
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/JAZZGUITR.zip
Here are all the original DX factory patch banks, including the Jazz Guitar patch:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/DX7%20 ... 20Patches/
And here's a link to a rare DX patch called Activate, that was used in Jan Hammer's famous "Rum Cay" tune.
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/ACTIVATE-1.syx
Here's a tune I did using a soundfont version of "Activate" for both bass and lead lines:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Activate.mp3
You hear that intense attack? This patch also just doesn't sound anything like that when played with a plugin FM synth.
I used a bit of flanger for these. The free flanger I use is TAL Flanger:
http://kunz.corrupt.ch/products/tal-effects
When you turn up the "delay" on TAL-Flanger (most flange plugs don't even offer a delay knob) along with feedback is when you hear it's uniquely amazing sounds. Settings:
And of course many people put a bit of cabinet distortion on the guitar patch. You could also use a wah wah pedal (or a filter plugin set to bandpass mode and sweep the frequency- same thing). That's if you want the types of sounds in this thread and want to use a FM-type generator to do it.
So tell me what you think. Then I'll do sync sweep "guitar," which really is my specialty. Lastly, I could try to reproduce the sound in the OP's example using a VA.
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
Well, it all sounds great. Many Many thanks for this all.
The only problem is that i can't load that "Activate" sound... could you save it in a complete bank? seems that i can only handle complete banks syx (well, without putting up the whole virtual midi stuffs which i'd avoid).
Waiting for the next parts, now
The only problem is that i can't load that "Activate" sound... could you save it in a complete bank? seems that i can only handle complete banks syx (well, without putting up the whole virtual midi stuffs which i'd avoid).
Waiting for the next parts, now
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
Hmmm. Try this one...it's a bank I created a few years ago of DX patches that were either used for or sounded like they could have been used for, Miami Vice soundtracks. So it should contain Activate.
http://danling.com/studio/patches/TX-80 ... 0Stuff.syx
By the way, you're more than welcome. Synthesists who are interested in this sort of stuff are players, like you and me, and it seems we are a dying breed. I think the synthesizer has gotten a bad rap as an instrument because there have been so few players who have consistently elevated the instrument to the level of traditional instruments in terms of the techniques and nuances of fine, expressive playing.
I'm far from a synth expert or programmer. This just happens to be my specialty.
OK. Hard sync sweep is a type of patch that uses hard sync (obviously!) and controls it's frequency with a pedal, mod wheel, etc. But before I get into that, let's agree on a synth to use. First, do you own any of the following: DIVA, Zebra, ACE, Massive, Omnisphere, or other VA with high sound quality? I'm asking because these can produce powerful sync sweep sounds, though Omnisphere's is considerably nastier-sounding in the aliasing department. If you don't have one of these, then I'm not sure it's worth bothering - there are free synths that have hard sync, but without oversampling, it sounds like, well, terrible once you add distortion to the signal. My top choices for sync sweep "guitar" are Zebra, DIVA, and Massive. They all have very smooth sync sweep, and they all have serious balls.
I use Massive on this tune starting at minute 1. This first minute is the smooth but weaker-sounding ACE (weak because ACE has a sweet, pure sound...not as rich as some others).
https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal
http://danling.com/studio/patches/TX-80 ... 0Stuff.syx
By the way, you're more than welcome. Synthesists who are interested in this sort of stuff are players, like you and me, and it seems we are a dying breed. I think the synthesizer has gotten a bad rap as an instrument because there have been so few players who have consistently elevated the instrument to the level of traditional instruments in terms of the techniques and nuances of fine, expressive playing.
I'm far from a synth expert or programmer. This just happens to be my specialty.
OK. Hard sync sweep is a type of patch that uses hard sync (obviously!) and controls it's frequency with a pedal, mod wheel, etc. But before I get into that, let's agree on a synth to use. First, do you own any of the following: DIVA, Zebra, ACE, Massive, Omnisphere, or other VA with high sound quality? I'm asking because these can produce powerful sync sweep sounds, though Omnisphere's is considerably nastier-sounding in the aliasing department. If you don't have one of these, then I'm not sure it's worth bothering - there are free synths that have hard sync, but without oversampling, it sounds like, well, terrible once you add distortion to the signal. My top choices for sync sweep "guitar" are Zebra, DIVA, and Massive. They all have very smooth sync sweep, and they all have serious balls.
I use Massive on this tune starting at minute 1. This first minute is the smooth but weaker-sounding ACE (weak because ACE has a sweet, pure sound...not as rich as some others).
https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
Hey: nice stuff on that guitars.
Being me born in 1970, about guitar sounds I'm more a "glam/hair rock" guy than an "Hendrix" one, but i like it.
(I just stumbled in "Sweet Talk" by Lee Aaron this night and i could sell a kidney for that guitar sound!
)
I'm also waiting for a "key" (or whatever it is the authoring stuff) for Synthmaster, which i won in the February OSC.... but right now i don't have it so i don't even know if this matter.
But i have the Synthmaster CM edition, right now.
Otherwise i'm a "all freeware VSTs" guy
Being me born in 1970, about guitar sounds I'm more a "glam/hair rock" guy than an "Hendrix" one, but i like it.
(I just stumbled in "Sweet Talk" by Lee Aaron this night and i could sell a kidney for that guitar sound!
)Ok, i had to manually add the header and tail bytes, but now this works. Thanks again.Gonga wrote:Hmmm. Try this one...it's a bank I created a few years ago of DX patches that were either used for or sounded like they could have been used for, Miami Vice soundtracks. So it should contain Activate.
http://danling.com/studio/patches/TX-80 ... 0Stuff.syx
I only own ZebraCM (that is, the version Computer Music magazine give as "gift" to the one that buy the magazine.) I don't know in what it differs from the "Legacy" one.Gonga wrote:First, do you own any of the following: DIVA, Zebra, ACE, Massive, Omnisphere, or other VA with high sound quality?
I'm also waiting for a "key" (or whatever it is the authoring stuff) for Synthmaster, which i won in the February OSC.... but right now i don't have it so i don't even know if this matter.
But i have the Synthmaster CM edition, right now.
Otherwise i'm a "all freeware VSTs" guy
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
I think Zebra CM is likely going to be ideal. Zebra is one of the best synths you can have for this for 3 reasons. 1) The sound quality is beautiful - the sync is oversampled so there's no aliasing at all, 2) Zebra has a very full and rich sync sound (balls!), 3) Zebra has a really powerful attack. The attack is really critical for cutting through a distortion and effect-laden sound like a lead guitar.
Here's a patch for Zebra2 that includes all the needed effects right within Zebra (cool). I hope it loads up for you. For a less dramatic sync sweep, turn off Osc 3.
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra ... ncitar.h2p
Zebra's oscillators allow you to simply "turn on" sync for any oscillator. Classically, it's a bit more complicated...you usually have to sync osc 2 to osc 1, turn osc 2's volume way down or off, then sweep the frequency of Osc2 to sweep the sync.
Now if you like this sort of thing, you can get a much better sound by using outboard effects (or maybe by being a better Zebra programmer than I). Here are the ones I like best (in a folder where you can download them):
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/
The Preampus is from acmebargig, who are no longer with us (sob sob). It's my all-time favorite distortion/cab sim for this. It's the only one that's 32-bit vst. The others are all 64-bit from TAL. Put them in this order: distortion, Ping-Pong echo, reverb, flanger. Flanger last gives it the monster sound.
Here's a patch for Zebra2 that includes all the needed effects right within Zebra (cool). I hope it loads up for you. For a less dramatic sync sweep, turn off Osc 3.
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra ... ncitar.h2p
Zebra's oscillators allow you to simply "turn on" sync for any oscillator. Classically, it's a bit more complicated...you usually have to sync osc 2 to osc 1, turn osc 2's volume way down or off, then sweep the frequency of Osc2 to sweep the sync.
Now if you like this sort of thing, you can get a much better sound by using outboard effects (or maybe by being a better Zebra programmer than I). Here are the ones I like best (in a folder where you can download them):
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/
The Preampus is from acmebargig, who are no longer with us (sob sob). It's my all-time favorite distortion/cab sim for this. It's the only one that's 32-bit vst. The others are all 64-bit from TAL. Put them in this order: distortion, Ping-Pong echo, reverb, flanger. Flanger last gives it the monster sound.
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
Nope.... your patch for Zebra 2 is not working for ZebraCM (which from what i read seems to be a trimmed down mix between Zebra and Zebra2)
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
Too bad. However, you might be able to locate a sync function for each oscillator. Then you just have to control the sync with the controller of your choice. I'm sure Synthmaster has some method of getting a hard sync sound and that's a quality-sounding synth too, though I don't have it.
I must admit, when it comes to the quality of the sound, the best synths are really worth their weight in gold. The quality of the sound is really what makes them so desirable. Hopefully one of those two CM versions has sync! If you find it and need help setting up a patch, I'll try to help. The sync sweep really is the holy grail of patches for synth lead lines.
another thing I consider crucial is to use a wider setting for pitch bend. I usually use 3 semitones up and 12 down (whammy bar).
Here's an example I recorded using (I think) DIVA, or possibly Massive:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Jannive.mp3
Classic sync sweep tunes:
Star Cycle (Jan Hammer tune - he also plays drums and synth bass, with Jeff Beck): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbNve6eJOM
The Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMzYDmEZjPg
I must admit, when it comes to the quality of the sound, the best synths are really worth their weight in gold. The quality of the sound is really what makes them so desirable. Hopefully one of those two CM versions has sync! If you find it and need help setting up a patch, I'll try to help. The sync sweep really is the holy grail of patches for synth lead lines.
another thing I consider crucial is to use a wider setting for pitch bend. I usually use 3 semitones up and 12 down (whammy bar).
Here's an example I recorded using (I think) DIVA, or possibly Massive:
http://danling.com/studio/sounds/Jannive.mp3
Classic sync sweep tunes:
Star Cycle (Jan Hammer tune - he also plays drums and synth bass, with Jeff Beck): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbNve6eJOM
The Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMzYDmEZjPg
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- KVRist
- 276 posts since 12 Apr, 2010 from Bologna, Italy
Well, in the case you have more time to spare, could you show me some screenshots of the Zebra2 patch, so i could try to see what ZebraCM could do?
Coupled with some explanation about what setting are the "key" ones (hard sync apart) and a short mp3 with the pure sound recorded for some seconds i could see how close i could come.
I understand that this is much work for you, and that you could not like/want/can do it.
Coupled with some explanation about what setting are the "key" ones (hard sync apart) and a short mp3 with the pure sound recorded for some seconds i could see how close i could come.
I understand that this is much work for you, and that you could not like/want/can do it.
Ensoniq SQ1, Korg Wavestation A/D
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- KVRAF
- 2083 posts since 28 Feb, 2011
Sure!
Here's a screenshot of the Synthesis page
and Performance page
The performance page shows that I clicked on the little dot and selected "Midi Learn | X1" and then moved my pedal (or mod wheel).
Here's a quick sample:
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/Zebratar.mp3
The patch and sample are with all effects turned off. And, it's just a simple 2-osc patch, but to add a bunch more oscs to it just muddies it up usually. Notice the attack. Sometimes a very radical attack sounds great by the time you add lots of effects. It cuts through. To make it even more radical, turn down the sustain of ENV 1, then turn up the overall volume.
and here's a folder where you'll find 4 great free effects, including the no-longer-available distortion:
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/
I hope it works for you Parduz
Here's a screenshot of the Synthesis page
and Performance page
The performance page shows that I clicked on the little dot and selected "Midi Learn | X1" and then moved my pedal (or mod wheel).
Here's a quick sample:
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/Zebratar.mp3
The patch and sample are with all effects turned off. And, it's just a simple 2-osc patch, but to add a bunch more oscs to it just muddies it up usually. Notice the attack. Sometimes a very radical attack sounds great by the time you add lots of effects. It cuts through. To make it even more radical, turn down the sustain of ENV 1, then turn up the overall volume.
and here's a folder where you'll find 4 great free effects, including the no-longer-available distortion:
http://danling.com/studio/patches/Zebra2/
I hope it works for you Parduz
