KVR Audio

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Sat May 16, 2015 11:20 am

So... here's the question. Is a 24-bit file size justified when the noisefloor of the original samples is determined by the Emulator II's 12-bit companded convertors (and 8-bit file size)? Or would converting the entire library to 16-bit make more sense?

Converting would make for a smaller download (by about 33%, as you'd expect) and a smaller hard disk footprint (useful if you're trying to conserve real estate on a flash drive, for example).

Dear Professor (and Mongo),

The converted 16-bit library is all we need. You know that (and Mongo sure too)..

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat May 16, 2015 11:52 am

aMUSEd wrote:Isn't the Kontakt filter a bit of a limitation compared to the original (which was an analog filter)?

AET is there to fill in the voids between static filter cutoff snapshots that depend on velocity. Should be reasonably close to the original.

So, they won't use the built-in filters. Just AET. As mentioned here:

the professor wrote:Some of the EII patches, though, map velocity to filter cutoff, and where that's the case we're taking multiple velocity samples and then creating a Kontakt AET morph between them to preserve the sound of the EII's filter opening. That way you get the real behaviour of those sounds, rather than us trying to mimic it in Kontakt.

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:54 pm

aMUSEd wrote:Isn't the Kontakt filter a bit of a limitation compared to the original (which was an analog filter)?

It would be if it were trying to replace the EII's filter, but it's not – it's there to work alongside it if you want to, but if you want to ignore it, you can. Basically, if an original EII patch uses the filter (eg to do a simple filtersweep), that's recorded in the sample. And if the original EII patch is more complex (eg it opens the filter progressively with velocity), we're taking multiple velocity layers and using custom AET morphs to recreate the original patch behaviour as closely as possible.

So the Kontakt filter is really there as a kind of added bonus: if you want to take an EII patch and then do something a bit different with it using the Kontakt filter (or the Kontakt chorus, or phaser, or rotary speaker, etc etc) you can... and we'll probably have some extra patches showing that kind of thing off a bit

But if you want the original sound of the EII and its glorious analogue filter, that should be built right in wherever the original patches make use of it.

We're hoping that's the best of both worlds!

Best wishes,

Prof

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:55 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
aMUSEd wrote:Isn't the Kontakt filter a bit of a limitation compared to the original (which was an analog filter)?
AET is there to fill in the voids between static filter cutoff snapshots that depend on velocity. Should be reasonably close to the original.

So, they won't use the built-in filters. Just AET. As mentioned here:

the professor wrote:Some of the EII patches, though, map velocity to filter cutoff, and where that's the case we're taking multiple velocity samples and then creating a Kontakt AET morph between them to preserve the sound of the EII's filter opening. That way you get the real behaviour of those sounds, rather than us trying to mimic it in Kontakt.

Exactly. What Evil said

kbaccki · Post by **kbaccki** » Sat May 16, 2015 4:52 pm

My brain says "16-bit", but my heart says "24-bit"...

No seriously... if you're trying to capture the actual output of the physical device, then you want to capture every subtle nuance and fizz and alias and harmonic... that nuance and detail goes beyond the noise floor of the original samples themselves.

That being said... I frankly don't care about the 22nd bit of information capturing some capacitor hum deep within the bowels of your 30 year old keyboard... all of that nuance and detail properly dithered down to 16-bit is good enough for me (and probably 95% of users).

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Sun May 17, 2015 7:25 am

kbaccki wrote:My brain says "16-bit", but my heart says "24-bit"...

No seriously... if you're trying to capture the actual output of the physical device, then you want to capture every subtle nuance and fizz and alias and harmonic... that nuance and detail goes beyond the noise floor of the original samples themselves.

That being said... I frankly don't care about the 22nd bit of information capturing some capacitor hum deep within the bowels of your 30 year old keyboard... all of that nuance and detail properly dithered down to 16-bit is good enough for me (and probably 95% of users).

We hear you. (We also hear some capacitor hum and convertor hiss

) We're capturing everything at 24-bit, natch, but the case for dithering to 16-bit before we finalise the library and upload it for sale is starting to sound pretty compelling. If you're hosting your sample libs on a nice silent expensive flash drive, for example, I bet you're not so keen on 8Gb of extra data that's basically just capturing extraneous noise...

kbaccki · Post by **kbaccki** » Mon May 18, 2015 12:03 am

the professor wrote:I bet you're not so keen on 8Gb of extra data that's basically just capturing extraneous noise...

Well, I usually am keen on throwing around 8GB here or there just because I can... but in my old age flaunting my terabytes to anyone who cares to ask is so passé and tiring... I can see the wastefulness of my youth, and I don't like what I see...

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Wed May 20, 2015 9:31 pm

UPDATE 20th MAY

Confirmed: the library will be 16-bit for release. This will mean

a much smaller disk footprint and
faster load times, but best of all
we can officially claim that the library is a 16-bit dither of 24-bit recordings of 12-bit conversions of 8-bit samples

We're also talking to NI about the possibility of releasing this for Kontakt Player (ie, for everyone) rather than just Kontakt. We'll keep you posted on progress with that.

Prof

http://www.rhythmicrobot.com ...pumping new voltage into old technology!

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Thu May 21, 2015 4:42 am

Kontakt Player is okay as long as the rest don't pay the bill for that. Sorry for the honest words but one reason that I bought the full version was that devs like you can live without paying license to NI. Maybe two versions with two prices is possible I don't know ?

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Thu May 21, 2015 5:36 am

murnau wrote:Kontakt Player is okay as long as the rest don't pay the bill for that. Sorry for the honest words but one reason that I bought the full version was that devs like you can live without paying license to NI. Maybe two versions with two prices is possible I don't know ?

Fair point – and very kind of you, too!

We've already set the pricing, though, so if we go down this route we'll eat the difference, not pass it on. I don't really see why the costs should be passed on to customers in any case: if producing a Player product really does attract a wider audience, that should – theoretically – pay for the licensing costs. The trouble (for indie devs) is that pesky "theoretically". It's a risk for us. It wouldn't be a risk if licensing Player was just a matter of paying a percentage of sales price to NI; but they require a large payment up-front as well, which makes it trickier to assess whether it'll be worth it for us or not.

We'll see. But whichever route we go down, don't worry, the price won't be affected

Alex Cremers · Post by **Alex Cremers** » Thu May 21, 2015 3:00 pm

Will it include Vangelis' sampled concert bass drum which he used for Blade Runner (boboooooom)?

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Thu May 21, 2015 4:08 pm

the professor wrote:
murnau wrote:Kontakt Player is okay as long as the rest don't pay the bill for that. Sorry for the honest words but one reason that I bought the full version was that devs like you can live without paying license to NI. Maybe two versions with two prices is possible I don't know ?
Fair point – and very kind of you, too! We've already set the pricing, though, so if we go down this route we'll eat the difference, not pass it on. I don't really see why the costs should be passed on to customers in any case: if producing a Player product really does attract a wider audience, that should – theoretically – pay for the licensing costs. The trouble (for indie devs) is that pesky "theoretically". It's a risk for us. It wouldn't be a risk if licensing Player was just a matter of paying a percentage of sales price to NI; but they require a large payment up-front as well, which makes it trickier to assess whether it'll be worth it for us or not.

We'll see. But whichever route we go down, don't worry, the price won't be affected

Realitone has two versions with different prices, maybe contact mike how it's working for him? Or first release the full-Kontakt version and see how much requests you get for the player?

It's funny how these sounds trigger old memories...

Cheers,

Tom

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Thu May 21, 2015 4:14 pm

Alex Cremers wrote:Will it include Vangelis' sampled concert bass drum which he used for Blade Runner (boboooooom)?

It will include EVERYONE'S FAVOURITE INSTRUMENT, EVER. Guaranteed.

No – seriously... I'm not sure. It's a bit tough to keep track of exactly what patch was used in what track, especially since some patches contain multiple sounds. Doug (who was actually there, back in the day) is working on compiling a list of which patches were in which hits, but at the moment all I can really say is that, if you know Instrument X was in Volume 1 of the OMI Universe of Sounds collection for the EII, then it'll be in Volume 1 of our OMI Universe of Sounds collection for Kontakt

If I'm honest I can't remember a concert bass drum in this. There's a selection of military bass drums, though, which might be it? They're pretty bobooooom

djshire · Post by **djshire** » Fri May 22, 2015 1:31 pm

The Professor - Question about possible future releases: will you be doing more E-Mu products? I heard that Digital Sound Factory didn't do that great of a job on their Kontakt instrument versions, and I have been looking for Kontakt instruments from E-Mu products such as the Orbit, Proteus, Vintage Pro, etc.

the professor · Post by **the professor** » Fri May 22, 2015 2:32 pm

djshire wrote:The Professor - Question about possible future releases: will you be doing more E-Mu products? I heard that Digital Sound Factory didn't do that great of a job on their Kontakt instrument versions, and I have been looking for Kontakt instruments from E-Mu products such as the Orbit, Proteus, Vintage Pro, etc.

I don't want to rule anything out, but I think it's unlikely – simply because what we're working on here isn't actually an E-mu product as such. The EII obviously is, but the library is Doug's copyright, which is why we're able to pursue it. E-mu themselves sold all their copyright to DSF, I think, which is why they're the ones making virtual versions of it. I did try to get in touch with them about licensing the original EII factory library, but they never wrote back, and the rumour I hear is that their "E-mu division" is actually one guy (who clearly doesn't answer his emails). All of that is a bit sad, and we'll keep trying on the factory library front... but I wouldn't hold your breath for our take on the Proteus 3 / World instruments pack, I'm afraid!

(Which is a bit of a shame, since I actually owned one, plus the ProCussion drum module, and remember them sounding pretty cool. The Proteus 3 had "Peter's Pad", which was really nice...

Of course the good news is that the EII library sounds even better!

)

Entire Emulator II "Universe of Sounds" library coming soon for Kontakt