I just learned about this yesterday after listening to a demo on Soundcloud. I immediately downloaded the demo (I've been looking for something to compliment (among other things) Shreddage II (and Classic). This is what I've been looking for. I've demoed MusicLab guitars before (RealStrat...YEARS ago though) and I liked the features but it wasn't the sound I'm after. Now they've released an EIGHT STRING guitar instrument that goes all the way down to LOW E and the features are great. It also does bass, but I'd prefer to use one of my bass libraries for that so I can use my new B7K.
I'm certainly going to buy this when I get paid next week. Has anyone else tried this? They released this last month and I'm just NOW learning about it!
Sidenote: I'm also eager to try out Orange Tree Samples' upcoming eight-string library.
MusicLab RealEight?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I have tried it, I am using it, and I am loving it.
Why? There are two major new features in RealEight that are currently a "test-run" so to speak, and will surface in the rest of the engines at some point (sadly, no definite ETA) in some form (at bar minimum, the HUMANIZE engine).
1) A HUMANIZE engine
This is an age-old FR finally ported. RealEight (or RE, or R8 in short) has one additional button to the bottom right of the GUI, called "HUMANIZE". This opens a new on-screen GUI where you can randomize various things like "Pick Position" (alters the position of the plectri, which in turn slightly changes the PU sound), Resonance and Random Mutes (if you didn't press stings properly - read: adds sloppiness to your performance), but most important IMO: Attack time, Stroke/Strum Time (for more realistic strumming), Stroke Velocity (you never hit all strings the same way), and micro-pitching (in cents) for all types of performances (more realistic, especially on fast play, since you hit strings during their vibration period)
This is adding so much to the realism of the sound. And it was a huge criticism from users over the years saying "this sounds too fake/too static/too 'quantized' - no go". Try it, you won't be disappointed. But it needs some fine tuning to sound "less sloppy" for sure (read: not all modes need to be activated, and not all need to be 30+ms or 2 steps)
2) The DOUBLE TRACK engine
This is a new feature, and currently RealEight exclusive. Along with the "Bass Mode" (which pitches down the whole engine by 1 Octave).
What this one does, is basically routing the signal to two outputs, or four outputs respectively, slightly delayed to each other. So one VSTi can create up to 4 double tracks. No individual VSTi needed anymore - even though the engine does still RAM sharing(!).
But this doesn't end here. RealEight ships with 3 DLLs now. The old Stereo Version, a 4-mono and 4 stereo version. Now old RealGuitar users might pay some closer attention now, as this was previously not the case (RG's output was always stereo - not mono!). So you can now load this particular VSTi as "4-mono" version, stay in "single guitar" mode and still get a mono output. Have old pedal FX plugins that only work in mono? Or have a host that uses less processing power in Mono? Now you can use it in mono!
Will this be ported for all other engines as well, and also create some custom "output routing"? I can't tell at this moment. But I'd love to see a "Rick-o-Sound" output routing with RealRick for sure, along with a "Bass mode" (FR already filed).
Some additional "minor" add ons:
- a keyswitch to "deactivate" the random fret noises and trigger them "as needed" (it was always bothering me that fret noises happened, if there shouldn't be any - now you can trigger them as you need)
- the "Palm Mute" (Bridge Mute) engine has more settings (the higher the new-to-set value, the shorter the strings ring out)
- there is an "octave offset" in the SETUP panel now, for smaller keyboard users
- installation was simplified (Bank Manager)
This all comes with a price however:
RealEight doesn't come with the Chord and Pattern mode (yet!). Neither does it have the "Joystick" mode (hard to pull off with GuitarHero/RockBand guitars). I'm in touch with the developers on this, regarding a fusion of the engines. Which will happen at some point - I just can't tell when and in what form. It's just bothering me as I have all RG's up until this point and I want to benefit from the new features in there as well. But maybe we'll at least see a new keyswitch in an update, that is similar to the "Interval" mode, but it's triggering the engine into "chords mode".
Then you can pull off something like this in an even simpler manner:
https://youtu.be/xiERPVIEvSc
Another thing:
The RealGuitar engine still uses the "pickup blend" technique (which can be both good and bad - you decide). So no set pickup switch, no low cut. I still recommend you to use(!) at least a plugin simulating a "low cut" post this engine if you want a more "lowend heavy sound". Also, the RG engine built in "lowshelf/highshelf" can add a lot to your desired sound. (don't overdo it however!).
Is this VSTi it worth it?
Heck yeah! Keep in mind, you get "two guitars in one" (an 8-string guitar, and well... a "somewhat" bass). Well, actually three-in-one if you set up the guitar in a specific way (Chapman Stick)
Hah! BONUS INFO:
Do you guys want a "somewhat" Chapman Stick? Yes? Then press the "Bass" button, set the "Permant FX" to "Tapping", raise the H.O. to 3-5 (Hammer On, 5 semitones), and start playing.
Want a dedicated Chapman Stick VSTi with all bells and whistles? Get in touch with the Developers.
Don't know what a Chapman Stick is?
https://youtu.be/VkgoF_orWuI
https://youtu.be/lmZxoxUNv4g
It's not just for Jazz/Funk and ProgRock.
Does it sound significantly different to RealLPC?
If you use the guitar in standard EADGBE tuning, then both yes and no. It really depends on the settings. RealLPC seems to be more "mid/upper end heavy" due to their used PU's (developer remains quiet on the gear - no comment if "vintage PU's" were used, or the more modern equivalents). I assume that not only thicker strings were used with RealEight, but the pickups are either DiMarzio or Seymor Duncan. The developer remains quiet on the built, but told me that the guitar was "custom" and not "off the shelf" (the GUI it looks like an Ibanez with DiMarzio PU's - but what do I know about guitars?!).
So we don't know if the Humbuckers had a specific setup prior to their recording, or sound like that "off the shelf". (again, the PU's are recorded directly, no passive circuit like LPF and Volume Knob was involved).
Is it a competition to Shreddage X?
I don't know - you decide. Shreddage X offers a very simplified engine for fast and aggressive Djent / Metal type of sound with a downtuned 7-string guitar. RealEight (like all other RealGuitars) is really technical and can be used for various types of things. It's always down to usability, and what type of FX chain you connect to it.
I'd say that both are equally great pieces of design. But if you don't have Kontakt, then Musiclab's creation might be right up your alley.
What about my old Musiclab guitars?
Wait for an update of the engine. It's in the making. At this point I know that we at least get the Humanize engine, but I just can't tell when. Bug the developers to release it ASAP - the more feedback they get, the more their focus will shift.
You seem to know the engine pretty well, do you have audio demos?
In fact, I do have one, showing off the Humanize mode (which I did present to the developers). But I'm not happy with it sound wise. I basically used a GuitarTab Pro tab from a famous "80ies" Oz rock song that I found on the web, converted it to MIDI, loaded it into Cubase and triggered RealEight with it. I'm happy with the played guitar, but I'm still finetuning the amp sound (which is just as important).
Maybe I can provide an A/B later tonight - no drums however.
Why? There are two major new features in RealEight that are currently a "test-run" so to speak, and will surface in the rest of the engines at some point (sadly, no definite ETA) in some form (at bar minimum, the HUMANIZE engine).
1) A HUMANIZE engine
This is an age-old FR finally ported. RealEight (or RE, or R8 in short) has one additional button to the bottom right of the GUI, called "HUMANIZE". This opens a new on-screen GUI where you can randomize various things like "Pick Position" (alters the position of the plectri, which in turn slightly changes the PU sound), Resonance and Random Mutes (if you didn't press stings properly - read: adds sloppiness to your performance), but most important IMO: Attack time, Stroke/Strum Time (for more realistic strumming), Stroke Velocity (you never hit all strings the same way), and micro-pitching (in cents) for all types of performances (more realistic, especially on fast play, since you hit strings during their vibration period)
This is adding so much to the realism of the sound. And it was a huge criticism from users over the years saying "this sounds too fake/too static/too 'quantized' - no go". Try it, you won't be disappointed. But it needs some fine tuning to sound "less sloppy" for sure (read: not all modes need to be activated, and not all need to be 30+ms or 2 steps)
2) The DOUBLE TRACK engine
This is a new feature, and currently RealEight exclusive. Along with the "Bass Mode" (which pitches down the whole engine by 1 Octave).
What this one does, is basically routing the signal to two outputs, or four outputs respectively, slightly delayed to each other. So one VSTi can create up to 4 double tracks. No individual VSTi needed anymore - even though the engine does still RAM sharing(!).
But this doesn't end here. RealEight ships with 3 DLLs now. The old Stereo Version, a 4-mono and 4 stereo version. Now old RealGuitar users might pay some closer attention now, as this was previously not the case (RG's output was always stereo - not mono!). So you can now load this particular VSTi as "4-mono" version, stay in "single guitar" mode and still get a mono output. Have old pedal FX plugins that only work in mono? Or have a host that uses less processing power in Mono? Now you can use it in mono!
Will this be ported for all other engines as well, and also create some custom "output routing"? I can't tell at this moment. But I'd love to see a "Rick-o-Sound" output routing with RealRick for sure, along with a "Bass mode" (FR already filed).
Some additional "minor" add ons:
- a keyswitch to "deactivate" the random fret noises and trigger them "as needed" (it was always bothering me that fret noises happened, if there shouldn't be any - now you can trigger them as you need)
- the "Palm Mute" (Bridge Mute) engine has more settings (the higher the new-to-set value, the shorter the strings ring out)
- there is an "octave offset" in the SETUP panel now, for smaller keyboard users
- installation was simplified (Bank Manager)
This all comes with a price however:
RealEight doesn't come with the Chord and Pattern mode (yet!). Neither does it have the "Joystick" mode (hard to pull off with GuitarHero/RockBand guitars). I'm in touch with the developers on this, regarding a fusion of the engines. Which will happen at some point - I just can't tell when and in what form. It's just bothering me as I have all RG's up until this point and I want to benefit from the new features in there as well. But maybe we'll at least see a new keyswitch in an update, that is similar to the "Interval" mode, but it's triggering the engine into "chords mode".
Then you can pull off something like this in an even simpler manner:
https://youtu.be/xiERPVIEvSc
Another thing:
The RealGuitar engine still uses the "pickup blend" technique (which can be both good and bad - you decide). So no set pickup switch, no low cut. I still recommend you to use(!) at least a plugin simulating a "low cut" post this engine if you want a more "lowend heavy sound". Also, the RG engine built in "lowshelf/highshelf" can add a lot to your desired sound. (don't overdo it however!).
Is this VSTi it worth it?
Heck yeah! Keep in mind, you get "two guitars in one" (an 8-string guitar, and well... a "somewhat" bass). Well, actually three-in-one if you set up the guitar in a specific way (Chapman Stick)
Hah! BONUS INFO:
Do you guys want a "somewhat" Chapman Stick? Yes? Then press the "Bass" button, set the "Permant FX" to "Tapping", raise the H.O. to 3-5 (Hammer On, 5 semitones), and start playing.
Want a dedicated Chapman Stick VSTi with all bells and whistles? Get in touch with the Developers.
Don't know what a Chapman Stick is?
https://youtu.be/VkgoF_orWuI
https://youtu.be/lmZxoxUNv4g
It's not just for Jazz/Funk and ProgRock.
Does it sound significantly different to RealLPC?
If you use the guitar in standard EADGBE tuning, then both yes and no. It really depends on the settings. RealLPC seems to be more "mid/upper end heavy" due to their used PU's (developer remains quiet on the gear - no comment if "vintage PU's" were used, or the more modern equivalents). I assume that not only thicker strings were used with RealEight, but the pickups are either DiMarzio or Seymor Duncan. The developer remains quiet on the built, but told me that the guitar was "custom" and not "off the shelf" (the GUI it looks like an Ibanez with DiMarzio PU's - but what do I know about guitars?!).
So we don't know if the Humbuckers had a specific setup prior to their recording, or sound like that "off the shelf". (again, the PU's are recorded directly, no passive circuit like LPF and Volume Knob was involved).
Is it a competition to Shreddage X?
I don't know - you decide. Shreddage X offers a very simplified engine for fast and aggressive Djent / Metal type of sound with a downtuned 7-string guitar. RealEight (like all other RealGuitars) is really technical and can be used for various types of things. It's always down to usability, and what type of FX chain you connect to it.
I'd say that both are equally great pieces of design. But if you don't have Kontakt, then Musiclab's creation might be right up your alley.
What about my old Musiclab guitars?
Wait for an update of the engine. It's in the making. At this point I know that we at least get the Humanize engine, but I just can't tell when. Bug the developers to release it ASAP - the more feedback they get, the more their focus will shift.
You seem to know the engine pretty well, do you have audio demos?
In fact, I do have one, showing off the Humanize mode (which I did present to the developers). But I'm not happy with it sound wise. I basically used a GuitarTab Pro tab from a famous "80ies" Oz rock song that I found on the web, converted it to MIDI, loaded it into Cubase and triggered RealEight with it. I'm happy with the played guitar, but I'm still finetuning the amp sound (which is just as important).
Maybe I can provide an A/B later tonight - no drums however.
Last edited by Compyfox on Mon May 18, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 189 posts since 21 Sep, 2011
Or just get Trilian. . . .Compyfox wrote:Want a dedicated Chapman Stick VSTi with all bells and whistles? Get in touch with the Developers.
Mac Studio Ultra, 64ram, 4tb+<4tb Samsung850-860evo ssd's in TB3 Akitio Enclosure> UAD Apollo x6-tb3/Yamaha2050/Amphion/Bowers&Wilkins/Komplete S61Mk2} latest OSX
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well... Trillian is 249EUR, eats a lot of HDD space and the keyswitches are (IMO) not that intuitive.
Musiclab Guitars are somewhere between 149-199USD (175EUR), comes with a "fraction" of the HDD load, has a ton of automatic keyswitches and possibilities.
Like I said - in the end, it's down to usability.
Musiclab Guitars are somewhere between 149-199USD (175EUR), comes with a "fraction" of the HDD load, has a ton of automatic keyswitches and possibilities.
Like I said - in the end, it's down to usability.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Let us take another look at the new "Humanize" feature again.
I just uploaded two audio demos for/of RealEight, with a very famous "Oz Rock" song from the 80ies, played with four instances of RealEight. You can find the audio files here:
RealEight - YSMANL (non-Humanized)
RealEight - YSMANL (Humanized)
Roughly 4,5MB each, 2:17min, 48/24, MP3 320kbit VBR
Some background info on this particular test:
- Looked for a GuitarTab Pro tab on the web
- converted the tab to MIDI
- loaded the tab into Cubase 7.5
- confirmed that the MIDI file is heavily quantized
- removed all Pitch/Volume/Modulation content
- routed each guitar to an individual instance of RealEight
- manually added pitch bending and modulation to the Solo Guitar Track
What you hear with the "non-Humanized" version is what was played back 1:1 from the MIDI (chords came from there, no keyswitches with RealEight, no Chord Mode present yet). Velocity at 120, no fancy stuff. In direct comparison the "Humanized" version - which added random micro-pitching, random attack on strumming and picking, not to mention randomly changes the velocity (which to some might sound too obvious) on top of the already high setup "Alternate" mode of the RealGuitar engine.
It's worlds apart IMO And sounds so much better than just a "static" (heavily quantized) version.
To those interested in where the Humanize module is set at in terms of the detection engine:
MIDI -> VSTi -> Chord and Velocity Detection -> Keyswitch Detection -> Humanize Engine -> Output
I did not(!) test (so far) if the MIDI output picks up "after" the Humanize engine (complete with micro pitching) or after the "keyswitch" detection. If you want to control x sampleset with the RealGuitar engine, please test that behavior yourself.
Here are screenshots from my Cubase setup (warning, large filesize/image!):
Guitar Setup - the Bass Guitar has an additional reduced Fretboard Noise (-18dB), please take note of the auto keyswiches (I only use "legato bend" on the Solo Guitar) - Guitars left to right: Rhythm L, Rhyhtm R, Bass, Solo guitar
RealEight's new Humanize panel
Amps and Routing (it's all in the mix)
The guitars themselves used an LPF ("Tone Dial" with 12dB/Oct to remove the harshness of the bridge pickup) -> Gate (just in case) -> Compressor -> Amp -> Cabinet. The cabinets I used were 2x12's for the guitars, 1x18 for the bass (with an added EL34 tube as slight saturation), and whatever the heck was built into AT3 with one of the Fender presets. Send FX was SATIN with my RE-201 Space Echo preset (it's a Factory Preset!) and ACON Multiply for the bass. The rhythm guitars were further tamed with EQ (cut around 280Hz, boost around 4,7kHz), and then run through a 15ips tape. The bass was mostly boosted around 250Hz and some harmonics, the Solo guitar was clearly overdone on purpose to "fit in". On the master is merely a "Trident 80 Console" as summing device, and a Clipper working at -1dBFS safety net.
Yes - RealEight can be used for more than just Djent.
And of course - the more work you put into the MIDI notes and keyswitches, the more realistic it sounds. But out of the box, that is already a lot!
I just uploaded two audio demos for/of RealEight, with a very famous "Oz Rock" song from the 80ies, played with four instances of RealEight. You can find the audio files here:
RealEight - YSMANL (non-Humanized)
RealEight - YSMANL (Humanized)
Roughly 4,5MB each, 2:17min, 48/24, MP3 320kbit VBR
Some background info on this particular test:
- Looked for a GuitarTab Pro tab on the web
- converted the tab to MIDI
- loaded the tab into Cubase 7.5
- confirmed that the MIDI file is heavily quantized
- removed all Pitch/Volume/Modulation content
- routed each guitar to an individual instance of RealEight
- manually added pitch bending and modulation to the Solo Guitar Track
What you hear with the "non-Humanized" version is what was played back 1:1 from the MIDI (chords came from there, no keyswitches with RealEight, no Chord Mode present yet). Velocity at 120, no fancy stuff. In direct comparison the "Humanized" version - which added random micro-pitching, random attack on strumming and picking, not to mention randomly changes the velocity (which to some might sound too obvious) on top of the already high setup "Alternate" mode of the RealGuitar engine.
It's worlds apart IMO And sounds so much better than just a "static" (heavily quantized) version.
To those interested in where the Humanize module is set at in terms of the detection engine:
MIDI -> VSTi -> Chord and Velocity Detection -> Keyswitch Detection -> Humanize Engine -> Output
I did not(!) test (so far) if the MIDI output picks up "after" the Humanize engine (complete with micro pitching) or after the "keyswitch" detection. If you want to control x sampleset with the RealGuitar engine, please test that behavior yourself.
Here are screenshots from my Cubase setup (warning, large filesize/image!):
Guitar Setup - the Bass Guitar has an additional reduced Fretboard Noise (-18dB), please take note of the auto keyswiches (I only use "legato bend" on the Solo Guitar) - Guitars left to right: Rhythm L, Rhyhtm R, Bass, Solo guitar
RealEight's new Humanize panel
Amps and Routing (it's all in the mix)
The guitars themselves used an LPF ("Tone Dial" with 12dB/Oct to remove the harshness of the bridge pickup) -> Gate (just in case) -> Compressor -> Amp -> Cabinet. The cabinets I used were 2x12's for the guitars, 1x18 for the bass (with an added EL34 tube as slight saturation), and whatever the heck was built into AT3 with one of the Fender presets. Send FX was SATIN with my RE-201 Space Echo preset (it's a Factory Preset!) and ACON Multiply for the bass. The rhythm guitars were further tamed with EQ (cut around 280Hz, boost around 4,7kHz), and then run through a 15ips tape. The bass was mostly boosted around 250Hz and some harmonics, the Solo guitar was clearly overdone on purpose to "fit in". On the master is merely a "Trident 80 Console" as summing device, and a Clipper working at -1dBFS safety net.
Yes - RealEight can be used for more than just Djent.
And of course - the more work you put into the MIDI notes and keyswitches, the more realistic it sounds. But out of the box, that is already a lot!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
Compy, maybe you can help me here. I'm putting together a faster metal/metalcore styled track (around 185 bpm) and there's a pretty noticeable machine gunning on most the mutes and some of the repeating sustains. I tried the ALTER setting (I set it to 5) but it's still noticeable. Shreddage II doesn't really have that problem, but I think RealEight also has a number of round robins for all of the notes. Do you know of a way to work this out? I'm going to experiment some more with the humanize settings.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Quick workarounds that come to mind - unless you send over the MIDI so that I can take a closer look:
a) Use Up/Down Strumming keys (Repeat keys, Manual Page 10) if the engine doesn't respond correctly. You can even "force downstrum" or "force upstrum" in a way (not comfortable, filed a better solution as FR) - how: play the first note on the "main zone", then retrigger with the desired repeat keys.
b) use the "Repetition (Note Off) FX" Keyswitch (if it's single notes, or triggered interval chords)
c) Raise the "ALTER" to 4 at bar minimum, Accent should be at default, or in the right third of the horizontal bars (please consult the manual, page 11)
d) play with the velocity in the piano roll more (you don't hit the same velocity setting several times in a row)
e) use the Humanize function (most notably: Attack Time, Stroke Time, Strum Time)
What should always be activated in the Humanize engine (IMO!):
- Velocity (All Strokes) +/-10 at bar minimum
- Pitch (All Sounds and Mute/Bridge Mute) +/-10 cents (maybe a bit higher to 15-20 if you simulate a "stronger arm")
Both settings can be higher in terms of the percentage probability. Think 65%. At least with the micro pitch shifting. Strings vibrate. So if you hit them while they are already in vibration, you already have a changed pitch, and you change it again if you strum/pick another time.
Though the higher the settings, the more sloppy the play - then again, the more "chaos" added to your MIDI performance (and therefore less "machine gun" effects). You just need to experiment, listen, create "your" virtual player.
Again, I'd need to see the MIDI file or a screenshot from your piano roll and RealEight to tell you anything further.
a) Use Up/Down Strumming keys (Repeat keys, Manual Page 10) if the engine doesn't respond correctly. You can even "force downstrum" or "force upstrum" in a way (not comfortable, filed a better solution as FR) - how: play the first note on the "main zone", then retrigger with the desired repeat keys.
b) use the "Repetition (Note Off) FX" Keyswitch (if it's single notes, or triggered interval chords)
c) Raise the "ALTER" to 4 at bar minimum, Accent should be at default, or in the right third of the horizontal bars (please consult the manual, page 11)
d) play with the velocity in the piano roll more (you don't hit the same velocity setting several times in a row)
e) use the Humanize function (most notably: Attack Time, Stroke Time, Strum Time)
What should always be activated in the Humanize engine (IMO!):
- Velocity (All Strokes) +/-10 at bar minimum
- Pitch (All Sounds and Mute/Bridge Mute) +/-10 cents (maybe a bit higher to 15-20 if you simulate a "stronger arm")
Both settings can be higher in terms of the percentage probability. Think 65%. At least with the micro pitch shifting. Strings vibrate. So if you hit them while they are already in vibration, you already have a changed pitch, and you change it again if you strum/pick another time.
Though the higher the settings, the more sloppy the play - then again, the more "chaos" added to your MIDI performance (and therefore less "machine gun" effects). You just need to experiment, listen, create "your" virtual player.
Again, I'd need to see the MIDI file or a screenshot from your piano roll and RealEight to tell you anything further.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
I asked about this on the MusicLab forum. I notice it in their audio demos too.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I've just read your post on the Musiclab Boards, and Sergey pretty much said the same as I did:
Raise the ALTER setting, play with velocity, use the Humanize engine (notably Pitch, Velocity - Sergey also said "Pick Position"). In the case of the probability settings, you could raise them to 70% for pitch, velocity +/-10, also at maybe 70%, but the Pick Position at +/-1 with a 30-50% probability. If you play fast chords and mutes, you don't move the hand that much from the spot, but you still strum a chord/note mid vibration (important!).
Again - can't do much more at this point unless I see the project.
Regarding the audio demos:
Keep in mind, the "other guitars" don't have the Humanize feature yet. Only RealEight. And the current audio demos (on SoundCloud) don't necessarily show off the capabilities. On top of that, if the tone and dynamic is heavily altered due to distortion and compression modules pre-amp - because of this you can have the impression of "Machine Gunning" (a suitable tone from the amp is just as important!). Which is why I posted my settings in the audio demo above. And yes, I am not "that" happy with my general tone either. But getting a clean (solo) to distorting tone (during chords) is harder than a constant hi-gain tone (also, the drums are missing which mask a lot of things).
I also watched the video demos again (they changed since launch day).
The video by Joh Mar... I get what you mean with the Machine Gun effect around 2:15min. Chances are this engine is an old one (take a look at the screen, the Bass Mode button is missing), and the reason for this sound could be several things: lack of the Humanize engine, the "guitar brain" not triggering properly (up/down strokes at this speed), the used FX, etc. If you take a closer look at the info panel in the middle, you can see that the velocity does(!) change - drastically even. So I guess it's a lack of obvious Humanize effects and the used FX (again: heavy distortion plus a hi-gain amp... missing nuances, etc).
The video demo by Javi Perera is definitely better (IMO!). Both in tone and dynamic play. Here you can also clearly see that the Humanize engine is being active, and he uses a lot(!) of different velocity types. Mute for example at 20, while Sustains are between 80 and 110 - I think the Humanize engine is also adding a lot(!) to the equation. He could have used the built in "velocity switches" (Bottom left of the GUI), but he opted for direct keyswitches instead.
Don't be discouraged with the engine. It evolved a lot(!) in recent years. And this is IMO the best one yet.
And the more time you put into learning it, with both using keyswitches and different velocity, the better your results.
Raise the ALTER setting, play with velocity, use the Humanize engine (notably Pitch, Velocity - Sergey also said "Pick Position"). In the case of the probability settings, you could raise them to 70% for pitch, velocity +/-10, also at maybe 70%, but the Pick Position at +/-1 with a 30-50% probability. If you play fast chords and mutes, you don't move the hand that much from the spot, but you still strum a chord/note mid vibration (important!).
Again - can't do much more at this point unless I see the project.
Regarding the audio demos:
Keep in mind, the "other guitars" don't have the Humanize feature yet. Only RealEight. And the current audio demos (on SoundCloud) don't necessarily show off the capabilities. On top of that, if the tone and dynamic is heavily altered due to distortion and compression modules pre-amp - because of this you can have the impression of "Machine Gunning" (a suitable tone from the amp is just as important!). Which is why I posted my settings in the audio demo above. And yes, I am not "that" happy with my general tone either. But getting a clean (solo) to distorting tone (during chords) is harder than a constant hi-gain tone (also, the drums are missing which mask a lot of things).
I also watched the video demos again (they changed since launch day).
The video by Joh Mar... I get what you mean with the Machine Gun effect around 2:15min. Chances are this engine is an old one (take a look at the screen, the Bass Mode button is missing), and the reason for this sound could be several things: lack of the Humanize engine, the "guitar brain" not triggering properly (up/down strokes at this speed), the used FX, etc. If you take a closer look at the info panel in the middle, you can see that the velocity does(!) change - drastically even. So I guess it's a lack of obvious Humanize effects and the used FX (again: heavy distortion plus a hi-gain amp... missing nuances, etc).
The video demo by Javi Perera is definitely better (IMO!). Both in tone and dynamic play. Here you can also clearly see that the Humanize engine is being active, and he uses a lot(!) of different velocity types. Mute for example at 20, while Sustains are between 80 and 110 - I think the Humanize engine is also adding a lot(!) to the equation. He could have used the built in "velocity switches" (Bottom left of the GUI), but he opted for direct keyswitches instead.
Don't be discouraged with the engine. It evolved a lot(!) in recent years. And this is IMO the best one yet.
And the more time you put into learning it, with both using keyswitches and different velocity, the better your results.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
Here's a zip file containing the .mid, a .wav example and the RealEight settings file.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zhd96e5mgplv4z4/r8.zip?dl=0
The pick position humanization make it a little better, but you can still hear some really blatant machine gunning.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zhd96e5mgplv4z4/r8.zip?dl=0
The pick position humanization make it a little better, but you can still hear some really blatant machine gunning.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
UPDATE: Okay, so I took the above track and added drums. The result actually sounds a lot better. On a project I was working on when I made my initial post in this thread, I had everything in the R8 midi hard quantized but was using the internal R8 humanization features (for timing). What I've been doing for all of my guitar VSTis for years is loosely quantizing my own midi performance (that I recorded using my controller). With drums added, the result is actually pretty good....with the guitar loosely quantized.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ue0smhjc3iv9 ... t.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ue0smhjc3iv9 ... t.wav?dl=0
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I just took a dive at your MIDI file and WAV example, also your RealEight settings. Interesting approach to this particular production.
I did change some settings however, which should make things a bit less robotic (so to speak) - especially with Quantized guitar tracks (I didn't add any swing to the MIDI or random offsets). And yes, drums do add a lot to the equation.
I just uploaded my changes and a screenshot of the settings I used:
xphen0m overhauled RealEight Preset and Screenshots (ca 5MB, 7zip)
I changed things like:
- pick position
- random pick position (back to 1)
- ALTER settings (raised the Low velocity accent)
- Humanize Settings (added Attack/Strum time, changed the Velocity Settings, changed the Pitch Settings)
I also added a Drum Loop from Zero-G's NuMetal (PureREX collection), just to show how this is adding to the production.
xphen0m Audio Demos (ca 11MB, WAV 48/24, 7zip)
I also found two main issues during testing, which I will forward to the developers:
a) Cubase causes hickups of notes, especially if the first RG note starts at the left locator (this is known for a while, sadly)
b) If you use the "double track engine" and the "attack/strum" humanize engine, this is adding up a lot(!) and can cause a huge shift in the guitars (especially at higher BPM). Which is the reason why the "double track delay" is down to 20% in the preset I provided
Else... I understand your problem with the "machine gun" effect.
Actually, it's fairly simple why you have the impression... you're using a high-gain amp. And the signal you send in is not only heavily distorted, but also strongly compressed. Due to this, you have the impression that you don't have round robin notes, but the same note over an over. I had this impression over here as well. Which indeed loosened once the drums set in.
Sadly, if you chain guitar pedals like a OD or Boost pedal with a high gain amp, this effect is even stronger. But that's unfortunately the usual in your face "NuMetal" sound. The only way to fix this, is using different amps (I don't know what suites you used), or play on a real guitar.
However, this effect can be at least be slightly toned down (slightly fixed) with the humanize engine. Just take a look at the preset I provided. You made a backup of your settings - so you can always roll back.
I hope this helps you a bit further.
I did change some settings however, which should make things a bit less robotic (so to speak) - especially with Quantized guitar tracks (I didn't add any swing to the MIDI or random offsets). And yes, drums do add a lot to the equation.
I just uploaded my changes and a screenshot of the settings I used:
xphen0m overhauled RealEight Preset and Screenshots (ca 5MB, 7zip)
I changed things like:
- pick position
- random pick position (back to 1)
- ALTER settings (raised the Low velocity accent)
- Humanize Settings (added Attack/Strum time, changed the Velocity Settings, changed the Pitch Settings)
I also added a Drum Loop from Zero-G's NuMetal (PureREX collection), just to show how this is adding to the production.
xphen0m Audio Demos (ca 11MB, WAV 48/24, 7zip)
I also found two main issues during testing, which I will forward to the developers:
a) Cubase causes hickups of notes, especially if the first RG note starts at the left locator (this is known for a while, sadly)
b) If you use the "double track engine" and the "attack/strum" humanize engine, this is adding up a lot(!) and can cause a huge shift in the guitars (especially at higher BPM). Which is the reason why the "double track delay" is down to 20% in the preset I provided
Else... I understand your problem with the "machine gun" effect.
Actually, it's fairly simple why you have the impression... you're using a high-gain amp. And the signal you send in is not only heavily distorted, but also strongly compressed. Due to this, you have the impression that you don't have round robin notes, but the same note over an over. I had this impression over here as well. Which indeed loosened once the drums set in.
Sadly, if you chain guitar pedals like a OD or Boost pedal with a high gain amp, this effect is even stronger. But that's unfortunately the usual in your face "NuMetal" sound. The only way to fix this, is using different amps (I don't know what suites you used), or play on a real guitar.
However, this effect can be at least be slightly toned down (slightly fixed) with the humanize engine. Just take a look at the preset I provided. You made a backup of your settings - so you can always roll back.
I hope this helps you a bit further.
Last edited by Compyfox on Sat May 23, 2015 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
Thanks Compy.
However, there's something wrong with your provided zip file. Windows keeps giving me an "unspecified error" when I try to extract it.
However, there's something wrong with your provided zip file. Windows keeps giving me an "unspecified error" when I try to extract it.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Oh, should have mentioned that it's packed with 7zip and LZMA compression. Get 7zip portable - that should fix it.
EDIT - BONUS INFO:
If you want to try another "dark-aimed" tone (I just tested this), try LePou's LE456 (ENGL-type sound) with:
- Channel A, Hi Gain
- Drive 3o'clock
- Bass 10o'clock
- Middle 12o'clock (ot to taste a bit higher)
- Treble 10:30o'clock
- Bottom active
- Bright Active
ESSENTIAL: Post EQ on the guitar mix
NEVE 1081 at LC 45Hz, 100Hz +2dB, 330Hz -4,5dB, 1,8kHz -4,5dB, 6,8kHz boost to taste, HC 8,2khz)
I also tried a PEAVY 5150 (TSE x50 v1) type head amp with the same cabinets (2x12 Hiwatt), but I didn't like the sound with your provided MIDI.
EDIT - BONUS INFO:
If you want to try another "dark-aimed" tone (I just tested this), try LePou's LE456 (ENGL-type sound) with:
- Channel A, Hi Gain
- Drive 3o'clock
- Bass 10o'clock
- Middle 12o'clock (ot to taste a bit higher)
- Treble 10:30o'clock
- Bottom active
- Bright Active
ESSENTIAL: Post EQ on the guitar mix
NEVE 1081 at LC 45Hz, 100Hz +2dB, 330Hz -4,5dB, 1,8kHz -4,5dB, 6,8kHz boost to taste, HC 8,2khz)
I also tried a PEAVY 5150 (TSE x50 v1) type head amp with the same cabinets (2x12 Hiwatt), but I didn't like the sound with your provided MIDI.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 840 posts since 28 Jan, 2008
Yeah, I was just going to reply that I just now saw that they used 7zip.
As far as amp sims, I really like what I can get out of Recabinet 4 and it's Psycho B amp (which is a 5150 II emulation, and I'm using it in hte above clip, I think). I have TSE X50 v2 and I had gotten a great tone with R8 in another project.....but then I started getting into a stupid tweak-a-thon and ruined it so I just went back to Recab. For the impulse, I have a TON of free and purchased ones, but I recently downloaded FrankTheSmith's free impulse based on Thy Art Is Murder. (this made me want to check out some of his impulse packs...highly recommended)
I was never big on the idea of using an electric guitar as a bass....until trying RealEight. I actually had no idea that it can sound that much like an actual bass. I want to finish this track (I'm going re-record the MIDI so I can get some actual recorded humanization) and put the R8 bass through my new Darkglass B7K.
I'm going to try your settings as I just now got it unzipped. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
As far as amp sims, I really like what I can get out of Recabinet 4 and it's Psycho B amp (which is a 5150 II emulation, and I'm using it in hte above clip, I think). I have TSE X50 v2 and I had gotten a great tone with R8 in another project.....but then I started getting into a stupid tweak-a-thon and ruined it so I just went back to Recab. For the impulse, I have a TON of free and purchased ones, but I recently downloaded FrankTheSmith's free impulse based on Thy Art Is Murder. (this made me want to check out some of his impulse packs...highly recommended)
I was never big on the idea of using an electric guitar as a bass....until trying RealEight. I actually had no idea that it can sound that much like an actual bass. I want to finish this track (I'm going re-record the MIDI so I can get some actual recorded humanization) and put the R8 bass through my new Darkglass B7K.
I'm going to try your settings as I just now got it unzipped. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
