Get Wider Mixes Without Delay or Stereo Wideners

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I run FF38 in forced HTML5 mode for YT, and I did get HD streams.
But that's not the point here.



Oh well...
Paschalis I. wrote:in this video we'll talk about how we can get wider mixes without using Delays
or Stereo Wideners such as the S1 from Waves.

We'll use console emulators to achieve a warmer, wider sound without
making it abnormal and cause ear fatigue.

I actually had to force myself through the 8:24min - and this video is so non-telling, not to mention lacks the most essential thing ever: information. So why is it even online other than "hay - I found a nice trick that works for me, but I can't tell you what this is about" and "want more - click on the link below, sign up to our newsletter".



Let me explain what is going on in technical terms:
You are using WAVES NLS Channel on the mix bus(!) in Dual Mono Mode.

What this does (technical explanation, for those that don't want to crawl through the video):
1) the NLS Channel plugin does not run in "Mono -> Stereo" or "Mono -> Mono" (if the plugin is switched to "Stereo Mode"), you actually send the MONO signal (in your case, the bass) to a "dual mono channel".

2) if NLS Channel is in "STEREO" Mode (or "Mono Mode" for that matter), it's only processing the stereo signal (or in case of the bass, the signal is in center, so it is mono - but run though the summing bus, which is stereo - the signal is still mono however).

3) But if you force NLS Channel into Multi Mono mode (for those hosts where it's working, you send the C signal to the L side of NLS Channel and the R side of NLS channel. Meaning: C signal to L independent and R independent rather than C to L+R.

4) what you create with this setup, is "individual saturation" for each channel, which gives the impression "oh wait... I widen the signal since", but in reality each channel is independently processed from each other. This causes a stereo offset and registers as "widened" on the used Goniometer.

5) if you'd run the plugin in "Mono" or "Stereo", then the Mono Signal (C) or the stereo Signal (L+R) is processed, not the individual channels. Therefore no offset. Which is actually THE CORRECT WAY of a console, not like you imply (unless you speak of large scale consoles and return channels, which are L/R rather than on consumer consoles with stereo busses, which are L+R).


And this is all there is to it. Bam - explained in less than 3 minutes.


You then brag on about Waves S1 Stereo Imager, and how it does things different. Yet you don't know "why" it does that. S1 is (very simple spoken) a Mid/Side tool, on top of a couple of other "psychoacoustic effects" (I always had the impression that S1 also uses phase inverted signals internally for "widening" - think K-Stereo and DrMS and the likes). So two different cups of tea.


Actually, if you would have used the "Buss" (still wrong written on all these tools - it is MIX BUS! Not mix buss, as in terms of "bussing"!) , you would have seen a similar effect without "delay", but does however not "widen" the mix, but actually narrow it. It's called "Crosstalk" - which blends the R signal into the left, and the L into the right channel. Depending on the console and how got it was maintained, this can be somewhere between -85dBFS and -60dBFS - and therefore register stronger or "less strong" on the Goniometer.

I haven't used Waves NLS in quite a while, but these "Console Emulation" type of tools work similar.



So there you have it... your "secret" better explained than in your 8,5min video and 5 thumbs up. Good for those that don't care and look for quick tutorials. But if you insist on creating "100% free lessions" for the audio realm, and want to have at least a bit of quality in them... you would have covered the technical "why" as well.

At least in my opinion.

Everything else you do is just click bait to get access to email addresses for "more free lessons". And such videos on YT downright infuriate me.
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Hey man chill no need to attack me for no reason.

I just demo-ed the plugin and explained the difference between Stereo and Dual Mono,
your text was fine, but my aim was to actually help people hear the plugin.

That was the purpose of this exact mini video :)

I've got other youtube videos some are around 1 hour long, you can find more info there,
if you're interested of course.

If not, some other people might find my info interesting, I help them decide if they want to actually
follow my advice or not by adding audio samples on my blog and on my youtube channel.

This way, if they like the end-results of my mixing skills, they'll follow my advice.
If they don't like my mixing skills, they can ignore me. Simple stuff, no one forced anyone.

Thanks for commenting my friend and letting me know about your opinion, peace!

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It's no attack on you, other than maybe how you run your page. And the only "one hour" video listed to the public, is in one of your playlist (maybe Youtube is messing around for me again, since it doesn't even show up in the "Uploads" - it's either hidden or I don't know.


You're not "merely showing how this plugin sounds", your video title implies a specific "trick" - yet you didn't properly explain why this is happening. This is my main point of criticism.


I'll leave it at that.
Good luck with future tutorials.
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oops double post sorry, ignore this
Last edited by Paschalis I. on Wed May 27, 2015 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paschalis I. wrote:
Compyfox wrote:You're not "merely showing how this plugin sounds", your video title implies a specific "trick" - yet you didn't properly explain why this is happening. This is my main point of criticism.


I'll leave it at that.
Good luck with future tutorials.
To tell you the truth I rarely cared about the technical stuff, I focus more on
creating/mixing music, I guess my blog is not be considered technical at all...

I am more of a "if it sounds good I'll use it, I don't really care what happens behind the scenes" guy.

Like when watching a movie, I don't really care what software or cameras they used to create the effects
if the end result is appealing to me... then I am pleased.

I really appreciate your time typing your opinion and I thank you for that, I may start getting a bit more
technical on my blog someday, till then... People got gearslutz for this type of things :D

(Who knows maybe someday you wish to help people by posting technical stuff on the blog,
you can be the "Technical Mod" or something like that - no prob with me if people are getting useful info, which is my main aim.)

Thanks a lot man, wish you the best too!

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I understand from where you both are coming from and I kinda agree with Compyfox, because you got technical and tried to explain, this is let me remind you pretty technical stuff, when you pull out meter and read numbers, it's technical, when you are explaining science behind it, it's technical :tu:

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Compyfox wrote: You then brag on about Waves S1 Stereo Imager, ... on top of a couple of other "psychoacoustic effects" (I always had the impression that S1 also uses phase inverted signals internally for "widening" - think K-Stereo and DrMS and the likes).
It probably does that, but they call it "correcting" the phase, probably to avoid any legal hassles with patents.

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Paschalis I. wrote:To tell you the truth I rarely cared about the technical stuff, I focus more on
creating/mixing music, I guess my blog is not be considered technical at all...

I am more of a "if it sounds good I'll use it, I don't really care what happens behind the scenes" guy.
Wrong thinking IMO.

Your page and YT channel is built upon "tips and tricks" - and as an interested party, I do expect to understand what's going on. If you don't explain "why" this is happening that you describe, the learning factor is moot.

An issue I have with a lot(!) of video tutorials on the web. Not just in the audio realm.


Paschalis I. wrote:I really appreciate your time typing your opinion and I thank you for that, I may start getting a bit more technical on my blog someday, till then... People got gearslutz for this type of things :D
That's like the third time in the last month alone that I read that "KVR is not made for technical discussions". Am I at the wrong forum?!


Paschalis I. wrote:(Who knows maybe someday you wish to help people by posting technical stuff on the blog, you can be the "Technical Mod" or something like that - no prob with me if people are getting useful info, which is my main aim.)
Appreciate the offer, but my "haven" is KVR Audio, my own page, my "local area services", the companies I beta test for and I am actually planning a video series myself for quite some time now as well.

I think I am well covered for the time being.


Passing Bye wrote:...because you got technical and tried to explain. This is, let me remind you, pretty technical stuff. When you pull out meter and read numbers, it's technical, when you are explaining science behind it, it's technical :tu:
Fixed the lettering a bit - took my a while to understand. But I completely agree with you.

You can't just talk about something, declare it as "mixing trick" and can't explain why this is happening. But at the same time aim at a YT series with a "subscription" basis (newsletter, no fees involved!). This gives me the wrong impression.

Maybe I'm just too long in this area to be more skeptical towards video tutorials. And trust me, I've seen many in recent years.


Nightpolymath wrote:
Compyfox wrote:...Waves S1 Stereo Imager...
It probably does that, but they call it "correcting" the phase, probably to avoid any legal hassles with patents.
Wait, does "Waves" call it that, or the devs of DrMS and/or the K-Stereo?
Because in order of release it's been Waves S1, then K-Stereo, and then DrMS.



Anyway - enough from me.
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Compyfox wrote: You then brag on about Waves S1 Stereo Imager, ... on top of a couple of other "psychoacoustic effects" (I always had the impression that S1 also uses phase inverted signals internally for "widening" - think K-Stereo and DrMS and the likes).
Nightpolymath wrote: It probably does that, but they call it "correcting" the phase, probably to avoid any legal hassles with patents.
I don't think S1 is doing something with phase. It is just MS matrix tool that plays with L+R and L-R signals (if we put aside shuffler part of course). If you feed mono into S1, it can't widen it.
Win10 Cubase Pro 9.5

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