Heads-up to soundware vendors: Soundware sharks preying on newbies.

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TL:DR wall of text, but soundware vendors should take the time to read this. I put a lot of time into it...

Other so-called "labels" might be taking YOUR hard work, putting it in their "products", repackaging it, then re-selling it under their name without your permission. I call these guys "soundware sharks". There are a LOT of shady vendors out there who prey on talented newbies. In some cases, they are doing it successfully - even more so than the actual creator of the original work! Something needs to be done about this.

Recently, a few 3rd-party labels took me on board to help out with quality control, reviewing preset banks before they are launched at their stores. One guy submitted a Sylenth bank, and I immediately recognized one of the bass patches from my own "Urban Flavors" set. It was also apparent that he was stealing the work of other people, too, so I told that vendor we should reject his Sylenth set for publishing.

People who have been doing sound design for a long time can easily spot the difference between original work, and someone using the work of several different sound designers as a basis for "their" sounds. The more experience you get, the easier it is to notice. Let's just put it this way: There are people who are very talented musicians and graphic designers, but when it comes to preset design, clearly don't know what they're doing. That's all I'm gonna say on that, because I don't want to help the sharks cover their tracks better.

It has also been confirmed by one 3rd-party that 2 more "brands" have been taking my work, as well as that of others, repackaging it, and reselling it without permiession. The one who "borrowed" my work the most heavily has consistantly been on the top of the bestseller charts at various places. It's not cool when you put in a lot of time providing original work, then some asshole steals your work and outsells you with it. Nor is it cool when a customer pays for something he expects to be original work, then finds out it isn't.

I'm not the only one effected by soundware sharks. Honest sellers need to band together, look out for each other, and DO something about this! Since I've started reviewing submitted items for other stores, I see how bad it has gotten nowadays. It really is bad, guys. Soundware vendors need to be aware of what's going on, and stores should be a lot more careful in what they accept, because too many fakes at their shop reflects badly on them. We've had so many sets submitted to us that are clearly NOT original work. It's only a matter of time before I find more of my own stuff in those submissions. I've called for some investigation on a few individuals already, and there will probably be more.

I work really hard to create original work from scratch. I design every sound from a single, very basic, blank canvas. If a synth doesn't have an "init" function, I go out of my way to create a basic, single saw wave with all parameters initialized, then save it as a blank canvas to work with. When somebody takes another person's work, which was probably pirated to begin with, alters a few settings, then calls it "their" work, that's not "sound design." Doing so without permission falls into legally dangerous territory, and it can be proven a lot easier than many of those soundware sharks seem to think :).

Just a heads-up to any sharks that might be reading this: I'm not a safe target to exploit anymore, because now I'm ON THE REVIEW TEAM for some of those online stores you submit your content to :). It's only a matter of time before I see more of my stuff in "your" work. I ain't saying which stores I work for, because when you don't know that information, I'm in a better position to bust ya :). Leave my work alone! Also, don't think I'm just looking out for myself. If and when I find out who else these sharks are ripping off, I WILL tip off the original artist about it! People who do real work need to look out for each other.

Anways... More and more "labels" are getting caught doing this, and these stores are getting tired of all the extra work they have to do when this happens. I really think more labels out there should invite trusted sound designers on board to review new products before accepting them. The soundware sharks are ruining the integrity of this entire industry, andthey'll drag everyone else down with them if we continue to do nothing about it.

It's gotten to the point where any sufficiently talented musician can download pirated copies of other people's work, create a very good MP3 demo, slap a flashy cover design on it, then outsell the actual creators of the original sound files. The market is also bloated with inexperienced bedroom producers thinking sound design is an easy way to a quick buck. The market isn't just saturated. It's bloated. The industry really needs to do some serious house cleaning.

If you're a soundware label, it doesn't matter how well your brand is doing right now, you should all be very concerned about the long term effects of these things. It WILL affect your bottom line if it goes on often enough, for long enough. Honest vendors really need to step beyond competing with each other, and instead, unite against a common enemy. Soundware sharks are a legitimate problem that needs to be addressed before it gets worse. This industry really needs better quality control!



Here's an idea I've been toying with for a while, which could help remedy this issue...

Perhaps experienced and trusted sound designers might be interested in forming an elite club, with STIFF standards for admission? I'm talking ELITE level standards, here. New soundware submissions would have to be reviewed by all the sound designers on board, and the new applicant would have to be voted in. This ensures quality and the buyers' trust.

If any of those sound designers on board recognizes their own work, and can show the other club members that those accusations are not groundless, then that applicant would be automatically rejected. This insures that customers are actually getting original, real work. It could also make things more difficult for the soundware sharks who prey on talented newbies and profit from it.

For example, members of the club could be given a banner, which they can put on their site, which reads "Verified Member of (whatever the club's name is). That banner would be a link to the club's website, explaining what the club is about. The club would be a great "vouch system", and if this idea takes off, it would be a lot harder for the sharks to be taken seriously. No banner = the product itself probably doesnt live up to the hype.

I strongly believe an elite "club" that only accepts top-level and original sound design would do a LOT of good for the industry and its customers. I'm _NOT_ interested in running this club, nor do I think I'd be any good at it, so if someone else wants to do this, please do. I would, however, apply for membership, and could also recommend a few people your way :).

We have many talented people who don't get enough credit for the work they do. Not everyone can afford to pay for the sharpest packaging or the flashiest demos, and many of those who CAN are soundware sharks who steal from the work of others. An elite club would really help separate the wheat from the chaff. Ever get taken in by clever marketing, only to be disappointed by what you actually get?

When people pay their hard earned cash, they expect truly original and well-made work. I say it's time to start an elite club and do those customers a favor. Anyone in with me on this? Please PM me. Let's gather some people together and see what we can do.

Just to get the ball rolling, here is a list of some sound designers that I think should easily qualify:

Leap Into the Void (His Bazille factory patches were amazing!)
Kevin Schroeder (VERY good EDM patches in Hive. Suffix "KS")
BigTone
Eclipse-Sound
Monomo Sound (GREAT 80s-style Hive factory patches)
Howard Scarr (If you're a retro fan, you'll agree with me on this)
...and a lot more, but can't think of their names right now.

...but their memberships would be up for vote by all members. Those listed are just my opinion.

This club would be a great business opportunity for whoever wants to run it. I have neither the funds or the business skills for such a position, and really think it's best for somone else to take the reins and be in charge. Anyone interested?
VST PRESETS ---> http://xenossoundworks.com
Bazille, NI Massive, Z3ta, PPG Wave, TAL-J8, RePro, Diva, Spire and more

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I think this is a good idea. :)
:borg:

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Great idea!! Where does one sign up?!
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing

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Nevermind, I'd rather spend my time making new sounds than worrying about who might misuse the older ones.
If I come across a problem, I'll try to take action.
Last edited by Ghostwave on Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free banks for soft synths | ghostwave.fr | soundcloud.com/ghostwaveaudio

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I have also come across presets being sold that are from other people's preset packs. When you are listening to a demo on youtube for a new pack and a preset that you have in an older pack jumps out at you it really does catch your attention! :hihi:

This is no difference than the pirate sites that give the products away.

But this "Elite" club could be a very BAD idea! Think of this, I apply to join this club but one of its "board members" feels that my products are in direct competition to his own, is he going to vote me in? lol

Of course not! This is setting up a monopoly on soundware isn't it? :help:

Saying that, I would love to be part of an "Original Sound Designers Club" and have some kind of badge for that, but only if it is open to all. :tu:

Anyway, good post!

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Biome_Digital wrote:I have also come across presets being sold that are from other people's preset packs. When you are listening to a demo on youtube for a new pack and a preset that you have in an older pack jumps out at you it really does catch your attention! :hihi:

This is no difference than the pirate sites that give the products away.

But this "Elite" club could be a very BAD idea! Think of this, I apply to join this club but one of its "board members" feels that my products are in direct competition to his own, is he going to vote me in? lol

Of course not! This is setting up a monopoly on soundware isn't it? :help:

Saying that, I would love to be part of an "Original Sound Designers Club" and have some kind of badge for that, but only if it is open to all. :tu:

Anyway, good post!
The main point is originality. Separating the original artists from those who steal and profit from it. As far as the point you mentioned about direct competition, that's why I suggested a voting system, with everyone on board. Every member would have to vote, and it couldn't be limited to just a few "select" members. That way, a few people with ulterior motives would be less able to pull any BS. Also, a member would not be allowed to vote on their own products.

This idea _needs_ to be fleshed out and discussed, because we'd have to make sure this idea couldn't be abused. Like you, I worry about setting up a monopoly. If you see weaknesses in these ideas, please feel free to point them out.

EDIT...just thought of an idea that might get around the possibility of ulterior motives. How about getting some trusted NON-sound designers on board, just to vote? Key word is "trusted", though. Someone who is NOT a sound designer would be less likely to have vested interests. What do y'all think?
VST PRESETS ---> http://xenossoundworks.com
Bazille, NI Massive, Z3ta, PPG Wave, TAL-J8, RePro, Diva, Spire and more

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There's where the problem lies I found this out years ago, putting your sounds on third party sites is a lose lose. This rip off stuff happens all the time. Some guy was sampling my presets in sample packs and even keeping the preset name as I had named it in the original pack. Best have your stuff all on your own site so you know whats what. I never ever submit my new stuff to anyone anymore for the exact reason you stated in that first message.

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I very much agree that this is an issue that need addressing. I've not come across any of my sounds in other packs, but then again, I dont buy many packs, so it's difficult to even discover this. But I'm not naive, as this has been going on for ages with sample-packs. It's a rough guess, but I find lots of very similar sounds, and sometimes the tags from the pack, they were taken from is still on.. lame indeed. So, I'm pretty sure there's some sharks out there who pick and choose from soundpacks and compile their own packs for release.

Keeping the soundpacks on your own site wont help much. My guess is that these sharks download warezed soundpacks from shady places on the internet... a simple google-search reveals all sorts of releases of my stuff.. and yours aswell.. :?

Everyone's a sounddesigner these days.. :hihi:
music // twolegs // geometriae
sounddesign // twolegstoneworks

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twolegstoneworks wrote:
Keeping the soundpacks on your own site wont help much. My guess is that these sharks download warezed soundpacks from shady places on the internet... a simple google-search reveals all sorts of releases of my stuff.. and yours aswell.. :?

Everyone's a sounddesigner these days.. :hihi:
Well I haven't released anything in a while except factory stuff but here's what I do with new packs I'm programming now. It is double the work but then I know what's what.

Say I'm creating a bank of 128 Massive presets, I actually create 256 so that I have an extra 128 in a spare pool. Then what I do is swap out 1 preset from the original and replace it with 1 from the pool for each bank. There for each buyer gets 127 exact same presets but with 1 swapped out from the pool which I keep a list of hence everyone has a different bank for the said synth. If the bank sells more than 128 copies then all I do is create another preset for the pool. Hope you get what I mean, yeah it's extra work but worth it. That way I know exactly who uploaded what and where through their paypal. Then they'll appear on the web with name address printed. In the case of top producers stealing stuff then they'll feature on my own website, a sort of mini beatport with all their tracks as a free download, an eye for an eye right? :D

As for everyones a sound designer these days? True lol everyone and the kitchen sink haha

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Karten wrote:Nevermind, I'd rather spend my time making new sounds than worrying about who might misuse the older ones.
If I come across a problem, I'll try to take action.
I felt the exact same way you did, all the way up until very recently. Consider this, though: What if one of those sharks takes your work and way outsells you with it? It's happened to me, and I don't want it happening to you or anyone else. People who make new, original sounds put in a lot more work than those who simply rip us off and take the credit for it. Its not just the money, it's about the recognition for the work we do. It's also about customer satisfaction, not just for our own customers, but users in general. Too many of them aren't getting what they actually paid for, and that might leave a bad taste in their eyes about the industry as a whole.
Last edited by Xenos on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
VST PRESETS ---> http://xenossoundworks.com
Bazille, NI Massive, Z3ta, PPG Wave, TAL-J8, RePro, Diva, Spire and more

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Xenos wrote:
Karten wrote:Nevermind, I'd rather spend my time making new sounds than worrying about who might misuse the older ones.
If I come across a problem, I'll try to take action.
I felt the exact same way you did, all the way up until very recently. Consider this, though: What if one of those sharks takes your work and way outsells you with it? It's happened to me, and I don't want it happening to you or anyone else. People who make new, original sounds put in a lot more work than those who simply rip us off and take the credit for it. Its not just the money, it's about the recognition for the work we do.
Well I find Rob Lee's way to "watermark" the banks a little deceptive. I very rarely buy banks but when I do, I want the same sounds as everyone else. And this preset swapping sounds soooo tedious!
An easy way to watermark your own patches is to turn knobs that won't cause any change to the sound. If it gets ripped off and the person has no idea what they're doing, they will not reset the knobs. Then if you come across this patch, it's easy to spot it as your own.
Discussing this kind of club is good but pointless if no-one decides to set it up.
Free banks for soft synths | ghostwave.fr | soundcloud.com/ghostwaveaudio

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Karten wrote:
Xenos wrote:
Karten wrote:Nevermind, I'd rather spend my time making new sounds than worrying about who might misuse the older ones.
If I come across a problem, I'll try to take action.
I felt the exact same way you did, all the way up until very recently. Consider this, though: What if one of those sharks takes your work and way outsells you with it? It's happened to me, and I don't want it happening to you or anyone else. People who make new, original sounds put in a lot more work than those who simply rip us off and take the credit for it. Its not just the money, it's about the recognition for the work we do.
Well I find Rob Lee's way to "watermark" the banks a little deceptive. I very rarely buy banks but when I do, I want the same sounds as everyone else. And this preset swapping sounds soooo tedious!
An easy way to watermark your own patches is to turn knobs that won't cause any change to the sound. If it gets ripped off and the person has no idea what they're doing, they will not reset the knobs. Then if you come across this patch, it's easy to spot it as your own.
Discussing this kind of club is good but pointless if no-one decides to set it up.
Before anyone sets it up, it's a good idea to discuss things first. The point of having a club is that people actually want to be a member. Also, I don't want this system to be abused. We need input and opinions. I can contact some people later on and get the ball rolling.
VST PRESETS ---> http://xenossoundworks.com
Bazille, NI Massive, Z3ta, PPG Wave, TAL-J8, RePro, Diva, Spire and more

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rob_lee wrote: Well I haven't released anything in a while except factory stuff but here's what I do with new packs I'm programming now. It is double the work but then I know what's what.

Say I'm creating a bank of 128 Massive presets, I actually create 256 so that I have an extra 128 in a spare pool. Then what I do is swap out 1 preset from the original and replace it with 1 from the pool for each bank. There for each buyer gets 127 exact same presets but with 1 swapped out from the pool which I keep a list of hence everyone has a different bank for the said synth. If the bank sells more than 128 copies then all I do is create another preset for the pool. Hope you get what I mean, yeah it's extra work but worth it. That way I know exactly who uploaded what and where through their paypal. Then they'll appear on the web with name address printed. In the case of top producers stealing stuff then they'll feature on my own website, a sort of mini beatport with all their tracks as a free download, an eye for an eye right? :D

As for everyones a sound designer these days? True lol everyone and the kitchen sink haha
Does sound like a lot of work and definately rules out using distribution-sites.

I had a thought about adding some kind of watermark to my stuff for u-he's products, as he's using his own format for presets, which actually allows for comments to be included.. unfortunately the added comment is erased if the preset is re-saved.. oh well..
music // twolegs // geometriae
sounddesign // twolegstoneworks

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Karten wrote: Well I find Rob Lee's way to "watermark" the banks a little deceptive. I very rarely buy banks but when I do, I want the same sounds as everyone else. And this preset swapping sounds soooo tedious!
1 preset swap out is deceptive out of 128? It's an idea I had for a while but haven't yet implemented but sure I will do. Each to their own though!

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Been giving this some more thought and here's what I've come up with so far:

If you see any issues, please say something...


Rather than the brand or person, how about having the PRODUCT qualify for listing on the club's website? We'd all judge submissions on 2 things: Authenticity (are they YOUR work?), and craftsmanship. Some of us, myself included, still have old products that are authentic, but probably don't measure up to get any sort of elite "quality" badge. Also, what about former sound sharks who decide to clean up their act and deserve a second chance? By having a product qualify instead of a brand, they aren't permanently blacklisted for past bad judgement. What do you guys think?

Originality alone should qualify a product for general membership. The quality badge, however, should be a separate thing that's up for vote, and we all need to figure out what those standards are.

What I suggest is this: Every member would have their own page, with all products listed that at least qualify on legitimacy (you're the original artists. If, after reviewing the files, the members feel the product is also of elite-level craftsmanship, there would be some sort of badge next to that product's listing.

Regardless of wether or not any product of theirs gets the "quality" badge, members would be expected to review and vote on all new submissions. This would give other sound designers a chance to study the work of others and raise their own standards. For example, I study the factory patches in Native Instruments and U-he synths, because I want to continue to improve on craftsmanship. After doing factory sounds for Hive, I really felt some of the other sound designers did much better EDM style patches than I did. Really glad to know that, because that's an area to improve on. By the same token, I have no problem with other members studying my submissions for new ideas.

Again, let's make one thing crystal clear: I'm _NOT_ interested in running this club. You guys need to be able to trust that I'm not doing this for any shady reasons. That's why I want open, public discussion before moving forward with this. I want to be able to sumbit my own material and get honest feeback. That's not possible if I hold an unfair advantage. If any product I submit doesn't make the elite quality seal, so be it. Maybe the next one will. The point is to encourage people to create their own work from scratch, as well as high standards all our customers can trust. This club wouldn't just be for our own benefit.

I really feel some form of accereditation is needed in this industry - a stamp of legitimacy. For that to work, we have to make sure this system cannot be abused. It has to be trusted. What do you guys think, so far? If you have some ideas, or see flaws in what I mentioned above, please point it out.

One last thing... if you guys know anyone who might be interested in starting the club's website, please point them to this thread. I think, to encourage the web designer to take us seriously, qualifying members should be willing to pay him a small, monthly membership fee. Personally, I'm fine with doing that. We could also discuss what "perks" such membership carries, like access to some quality MP3 demo writers. This could be a good chance for talented musicians to get recognized as well.

Let's iron out the voting system. Like others have pointed out, that's an area that can be abused. For this to work, trust is extremely important.
VST PRESETS ---> http://xenossoundworks.com
Bazille, NI Massive, Z3ta, PPG Wave, TAL-J8, RePro, Diva, Spire and more

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