counter-melody or counterpoint?

[Kinh]

He actually said 'even when it isn't more than just the bass...' For that matter I don't know what you mean by 'contrary rhythm'. (Or 'standard choral composition'. Is JS Bach standard, or no.)

Contrary rhythm = melodic lines in different rhythms to each other in the same bar

What the hell are you talking about? I think you want to say "poly rhythm", not contrary rhythm.

Contrary motion= notes moving away from each other in the same bar rather than following :

Try to do that with four voices (four different lines). I'd like to see all four moving away from each other, permanently

Standard choral = Without counterpoint being employed:

Oh, really? Says who?

JS Bach got to do with anything = No

J S Bach writing is basically polyphonic (which is the right word to define musical composition using counterpoint techniques). Counterpoint is a composition technique, which was (and is) studied by those who wanted (want) to write music.

Polyphonic composition is the way of writing music using that technique. Polyphony may have all voices moving using the same rhythm, like in the chorales, or independent rhythms. The fact it usually is the latter doesn't mean it can't be the forth. What you must have is several voices of equal importance (usually four, but you can have six or eight, or just two, like in the Inventions by J S Bach, or three, like in the Sonfonias, by the same composer). But even this definition is somehow fluid, since our ear usually catches better the outer voices (the bass and the soprano).

It's not what you "think", or what you want it to be. These things are what they are, and they are that for centuries. If you don't know what you are talking about, why don't you listen and learn?

Firstly, lecturing me on classical music is a stupid move, especially from someone whose only form of education on the subject is over a course of 5 minutes on google (and evidently that is the case)

Secondly 5 voices moving away from each other. Dont know what that has to do with anything I said but as a rule of thumb your objective using counterpoint is to move the notes away. Like everything there are rules in doing things in order for the whole to work. If you have 5 voices then they still must at least seek to move away from each other, not together, you accomplish this by creating space within the arrangement. You mentioned Bach. Well, if you really knew anything about his work you'd know he was the master of both. Lines cross but the motion is still contrary.

I assume you've never composed a single piece of classical music in your life, which actually makes me the authority and you they guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. Sorry. Google doesn't make you the expert, it makes you the expert at regurgitation.

Its easy just to goolge everything, pick out words like Choral and say.."ah..Chorus".."A type of church music" but unless you understand what that means its kinda pointless giving you're 2c worth (and I say 2 because Im a generous guy ). You just stick to your samples and your loops and leave classical music alone. You wouldn't like it much anyway.

[Kinh]

Learned what the correct way? You asked what JS Bach has to do with anything after saying 'standard' choral composition means 'there is no counterpoint'. Your warning to me? Contrary rhythm, yo. Look up contrary.

OK, now this discussion has hit rock bottom. Congratulations
Im sure the guy who started it is as confused as hell. Nice work folks.

[fmr]

Firstly, lecturing me on classical music is a stupid move, especially from someone whose only form of education on the subject is over a course of 5 minutes on google (and evidently that is the case)

Again, this coming from a guy that had to look for a Rocky movie to find na exemple of polyphonic composition

Secondly 5 voices moving away from each other. Dont know what that has to do with anything I said but as a rule of thumb your objective using counterpoint is to move the notes away. Like everything there are rules in doing things in order for the whole to work. If you have 5 voices then they still must at least seek to move away from each other, not together, you accomplish this by creating space within the arrangement. You mentioned Bach. Well, if you really knew anything about his work you'd know he was the master of both. Lines cross but the motion is still contrary.

This shows to all evidence that you NEVER wrote anything in a polyphonic way. When you have four or more voices it is IMPOSSIBLE that all move contrary to each other - that "rule" as you say only works with two voices, which is counterpoint for beginners. With four or more voices, some probably will not move at all, some may move in parallell move, some in diagonal move (one horizontally while the other goes up or down), etc. Contrary movement is not a requisite to achieve polyphony, it is a "rule of thumb" for beginners.

I assume you've never composed a single piece of classical music in your life, which actually makes me the authority and you they guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. Sorry. Google doesn't make you the expert, it makes you the expert at regurgitation.

You may assume what you want. This is too stupid to even argue about. I'll let it pass since you don't even know me, but you should show more respect - it's a matter of good education (even if I was wrong, which is something you fail to demonstrate).

Its easy just to goolge everything, pick out words like Choral and say.."ah..Chorus".."A type of church music" but unless you dont understand what that means its kinda pointless giving you're 2c worth (and I say 2 because Im a generous guy ). You just stick to your samples and your loops and leave classical music alone. You wouldn't like it much anyway.

Seems like you must learn to read too. I never said "choral", I said "chorale" or "chorales", like in "luteran chorales". That's a form of church music created by Martin Luther, that is homophonic but written in a polyphonic way (and I'll let your poor little brain to solve the apparent contradiction). Again, you are being rude, unpolite, calling up your (still to be demonstrated) authority expertise, on someone who clearly knows more than you. And don't let me even start to talk about J S Bach.

[Kinh]

OK, judging by these recent comments it looks like this discussion has well and truly wondered outside the intelligence radar which leads me to believe I am in a discussion with 'young' people. Right?

So, I have no further interest, but dont let that stop you, by all means continue, chase each other's tail, enjoy being young while you can, soon ignorance will fade away like a fictional tale told over a campfire.

Id be nice to be young and know everything again. I miss those days.

[fmr]

OK, judging by these recent comments it looks like this discussion was well and truly wondered outside the intelligence radar which leads me to believe I am in a discussion with 'young' people. Right?

So, I have no further interest, but dont let that stop you, by all means continue, chase each other's tail, enjoy being young while you can, soon ignorance will fade away like a fictional tale told over a campfire.

Id be nice to be young and know everything again. I miss those days.

Your perception and clarividence is amazing. I'd say it's on pair with your showed musical knowledge

What a noob

[pamuma]

In this forum always the same or what? all you arguing about: I know more music than you, you know nothing. And the truth is that no one has yet clarified my doubts about how the melodies are formed Photo.

[fmr]

In this forum always the same or what? all you arguing about: I know more music than you, you know nothing. And the truth is that no one has yet clarified my doubts about how the melodies are formed Photo.

You are right regarding the fórum. Unfortunately, there are people with big egos, that only post to try to show what they think they know (and sometimes just show their ignorance).

But, if you are talking about the main melody, there is no recipe on that (sorry, this is not cooking). You may start with a lyric, and sung something over it, or simply humming something, or playing around with your instrument (different people devise different ways of working). Sometimes, a melodic idea appears. That's where the technical training helps. You have to develop that melodic idea to achieve something. That depends the style you are working on.

If you are talking about the counter melodies, and assuming that you want to create tonal music, you have to define what chords go where, and then create different melodies that go from > to the main notes that have to be in those points where the chords have to form. Better start with a bass line, that fits harmonically with the melody, and is simultaneously also catchy.

These are just hints, and easier to say than to achieve. You'll have to train and try (a lot), and preferably with tutoring from someone with expertise. Sorry but, again, this isn't something you can learn on an Internet fórum or from vídeos on the You Tube.

However, there are some things you may study, lie this, for example: http://www.garritan.com/principles-of-o ... /lesson-3/

Or Google what makes a good melody in music... but always take what's written with some grains of salt. Nothing can replace your own experience and education. The best way is listen a lot to a lot of music (preferably of as many different styles as you can), and play along.

[Otherworldly]

This is a joke, right? HINT: This is totally absurd, and has nothing to do with "counterpoint"

I stand corrected.

I have clearly explained in the most basic and simplistic example involving just two or three notes = Polyphony.... you can't have counterpoints with just one note (i.e. instrument) and no other notes played for example, you need bass and piano = two or more notes (instruments). . fmr, please take slow deep breaths and think about that, don't rush, take your time.

I also explained further, such critical elements (counterpoints) can change the mood (music), I also explained that these elements can either enhance or ruin a hook.

Btw, harmonies are additions to counterpoints, they are separate elements. This is true in regards to 'complex compositions' that has a counterpoint 'and in addition' has added harmonies that are separate from it (counterpoint). Counterpoint of course have harmonies because it involves at least two independent parts i.e. bass and piano. (as explained in my first post)

I have been composing and teaching music for 40+ years. I have mastered music theory (piano) since the late 1970s. I have written complex compositions and receive credits (royalties) for my works.

Counterpoint contains melodies, harmonies, which obviously involves more than one instrument. Other elements in those performances contain articulations and rhythm. All these elements combine = Counterpoint.

I'm done with this topic, and both Jancivil and Fmr (added to my block-list)

.

[jancivil]

OK, judging by these recent comments it looks like this discussion has well and truly wondered outside the intelligence radar which leads me to believe I am in a discussion with 'young' people. Right?

I know I'm in a discussion with a severely overconfident person. Contrary rhythm: this is a nonsensical term. Contrary means the opposite of. To contradict. Then you double down on this rather surprising (in its lack of thought) assertion that the goal is to write in contrary motion. It's just a technique, maybe a typical attribute of some contrapuntal writing. The stupidity of this discussion is all you. The salient thing to say is that the voices show to be independent, on some level. At one time, concordance was more or less desired; JS Bach's music stemmed from a harmonic basis, but with often bold writing 'contrapuntally' in that some things considered as dissonances do not resolve the typical way; vertically we could find novel structures if that was the end-all to it. It isn't really, the beauty of the line is. The two-part invention really bears this out. Eventually we get to 20th c. practice and the vertical consideration as any restriction goes out the window.

No, if there is anyone regurgitating terms it must be you. Contrary motion does not define contrapuntal, it appears I must reiterate that one can write parts using that and remain in what you believe is 'standard choral composition'.

You can't even debate on points, you need the ad hominem 'you young people', "someone whose only form of education on the subject is over a course of 5 minutes on google (and evidently that is the case)", and all of this dull posturing. When you resort to that approach, instead of addressing any real point at all, you're losing the argument.

You've shown us the very model for Dunning-Kruger effect here.

[jancivil]

This is a joke, right?

I have clearly explained

Well, one thing you did was posit the hihat and the kick drum in a drum part as 'counter-rhythm' per se. Typically the two are quite dependent on one another as parts functioning in a larger picture. The 'counter' part of this term means 'against', 'in opposition to'. This may be true of some things but as a truism, probably not. At any rate, this notion doesn't seem to have any bearing on 'counterpoint'.

Btw, harmonies are additions to counterpoints, they are separate elements.

That's an odd thing to see. There may be 'harmonies' in what we must consider as contrapuntal writing, I don't see any usefulness in 'separating' the 'elements'. Where in some music was a harmony an addition to counterpoint, exactly? Show us.

[jancivil]

In this forum always the same or what? all you arguing about: I know more music than you, you know nothing. And the truth is that no one has yet clarified my doubts about how the melodies are formed Photo.

Well, I'm good with my statement that independence of the parts is key to the definition of 'counterpoint'. If there are indeed two melodies, it must be contrapuntal. I can't know what your doubts as to the formation of that music are beyond that. I would say that EDM is not the best place for consideration of counterpoint, that if you are really curious you would benefit from consideration of more substantial music.

In this sub-forum, it does happen that someone makes silly or absurd statements while posturing as an expert and finds some opposition.

[Hank the Knife]

Gee, dunno. Are we speaking of tonal counterpoint or modal counterpoint? Or both..?

[Harry_HH]

Technically, counterpoint may or may not have different rhythmic structures. The term comes from the latin "contrapunctus" which is an abreviation of "punctus contra punctus" which means literally "point against point". Points were the old way of notating the notes (pitches), and are the simpler of the neumes. Earlier polyphony was, indeed, homophonic, so, literally "punctus contra punctus".

But that was soon abandoned, in favour of more and more complex works, where, indeed, each voice moves more or less independently of the others. Counterpoint was a designation created later to call the stylized, academic study of the polyhonic techniques.

So, technically, counter-melody is counterpoint, indeed. A bass line is always a counter-melody, technically speaking, even when it isn't more than just the bass of the chords being played. But you would enrich substantially your music if you create really melodic bass lines. Take, for exemple the famous theme of Axel F, by Faltemeyer. You have a very marked and easily recognizable melody, but also a very marked and identically easily recognizable bass line (a counter-melody).

To achieve true polyphony (again technically speaking), you can't have ONE melody, since all voices are equally important, therefore, you have in reality, as many melodies as you have voices, all equally important (four voices = four "melodies"). That's why, many times, the voices imitate one another.

The subject of this thread is most interesting and important - I salute this discurse, no matter of some discords here. I think the above statement is well formulated.
Of course not complete - remember that if you study music (e.g. music academy, Juilliard etc.), counterpoint is one whole subject including about 1000 hours with exercises.
Counterpoint includes understanding of polyphony and harmony, but its much more, because as mentioned, to construct independent melodies in the way that they complete each other, its easily said but demands talent and training to make work in practice. Bass counterpoint is spesific part of this (btw, a good example that you don't need necessarily theoretical music knowledge are those rock/pop/soul/jazz bassist who use counterpoint all the time, just listen MacCartney 1967-69 - their playing just sounds better than the "average" bass playing).
Those who study classical composing say that counterpoint is one of the most important tools they have.
Bach was mentioned, just listen his fugues - even if you are an EDM man.

[NystagmusE]

Counterpoint as I understand it has a different rhythmic structure to the main melody, so I would actually just call these harmonies rather than counter-anything.

Counterpoint should be rhythmically unrelated to the main melody.

Technically, counterpoint may or may not have different rhythmic structures. The term comes from the latin "contrapunctus" which is an abreviation of "punctus contra punctus" which means literally "point against point". Points were the old way of notating the notes (pitches), and are the simpler of the neumes. Earlier polyphony was, indeed, homophonic, so, literally "punctus contra punctus".

But that was soon abandoned, in favour of more and more complex works, where, indeed, each voice moves more or less independently of the others. Counterpoint was a designation created later to call the stylized, academic study of the polyhonic techniques.

So, technically, counter-melody is counterpoint, indeed. A bass line is always a counter-melody, technically speaking, even when it isn't more than just the bass of the chords being played. But you would enrich substantially your music if you create really melodic bass lines. Take, for exemple the famous theme of Axel F, by Faltemeyer. You have a very marked and easily recognizable melody, but also a very marked and identically easily recognizable bass line (a counter-melody).

To achieve true polyphony (again technically speaking), you can't have ONE melody, since all voices are equally important, therefore, you have in reality, as many melodies as you have voices, all equally important (four voices = four "melodies"). That's why, many times, the voices imitate one another.

I like what you're saying, but Axel F is by Herbie Hancock. It was also featured on the Beverly Hills Cop soundtrack. It's also famous. Are you thinking of the same tune or something else?

[jancivil]

6 songs people think are by the wrong artist: #3