Recording western guitar and making it sound HUGE

[skipscada]

The thing is that it´s a guitar with a builtin piezo microphone, so (un-) luckily I won´t need to think about mic placement.

Yes, you have a guitar with a piezo mic. But if that can't get you the sound you're after, I agree with thecontrolcentre that the fallback scenario of using mic placement should be considered again. To be honoust, when I listened to the ABBA track my first thought was: use a real mic instead of the piezo.

Thanks, I´ll try anything else before that though - love the convenience of just plugging in the guitar without worrying about noise.

David Lanois likes recording acoustics with pickups, so there's at least one guitarist/producer guru who embraces this method. I suspect his gear is somewhat more select, but it's worth trying.

When adding reverb, make sure to leave a fair amount of dry signal, or else everything will become distant. Highpass filtering the reverb is also an idea. Similarly, if you compress, make sure the attack time isn't too fast, or you'll lose the transients.

[Roman Empire]

The thing is that it´s a guitar with a builtin piezo microphone, so (un-) luckily I won´t need to think about mic placement.

Yes, you have a guitar with a piezo mic. But if that can't get you the sound you're after, I agree with thecontrolcentre that the fallback scenario of using mic placement should be considered again. To be honoust, when I listened to the ABBA track my first thought was: use a real mic instead of the piezo.

Thanks, I´ll try anything else before that though - love the convenience of just plugging in the guitar without worrying about noise.

David Lanois likes recording acoustics with pickups, so there's at least one guitarist/producer guru who embraces this method. I suspect his gear is somewhat more select, but it's worth trying.

When adding reverb, make sure to leave a fair amount of dry signal, or else everything will become distant. Highpass filtering the reverb is also an idea. Similarly, if you compress, make sure the attack time isn't too fast, or you'll lose the transients.

Cool, I´m gonna see if I can find any readings on what Daniel (I assume it is) does when recording amplified acoustic guitars. It may be though that he´s not after that big guitar sound but a more electrical style, considering who he´s been working with, but I may be wrong.

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[skipscada]

The thing is that it´s a guitar with a builtin piezo microphone, so (un-) luckily I won´t need to think about mic placement.

Yes, you have a guitar with a piezo mic. But if that can't get you the sound you're after, I agree with thecontrolcentre that the fallback scenario of using mic placement should be considered again. To be honoust, when I listened to the ABBA track my first thought was: use a real mic instead of the piezo.

Thanks, I´ll try anything else before that though - love the convenience of just plugging in the guitar without worrying about noise.

David Lanois likes recording acoustics with pickups, so there's at least one guitarist/producer guru who embraces this method. I suspect his gear is somewhat more select, but it's worth trying.

When adding reverb, make sure to leave a fair amount of dry signal, or else everything will become distant. Highpass filtering the reverb is also an idea. Similarly, if you compress, make sure the attack time isn't too fast, or you'll lose the transients.

Cool, I´m gonna see if I can find any readings on what Daniel (I assume it is) does when recording amplified acoustic guitars. It may be though that he´s not after that big guitar sound but a more electrical style, considering who he´s been working with, but I may be wrong.

Best Regards

Roman Empire

Daniel, of course. Sorry. He's worked with all sorts of people, but his own early work was pretty centred on the acoustic guitar, if I remember correctly. Haven't really heard any of his stuff for a long time though. Just wanted to give you some celebrity support to inspire you in your efforts. He says he prefers it partly for the convenience of separation while recording guitar and vocals at the same time, and the potential for surprising sounds (not what you're looking for, perhaps).

Unsurprisingly, when recording "normal" acoustic guitar, he names the usual microphone suspects that come with a hefty price tag.

[Roman Empire]

Ok, tried almost everything except for new strings yesterday, layering, doubling, add chord inversions, shaved off mids and low end.
This helped, especially the EQ´ing, but still there are two problems: Too much noise from strumming due to the piezo being inside the guitar, and the tone being more a saw than a sine sound for the same reason.
With compression I got rid of some transcients - those strums that are way too loud, and a bit of reverb mixed louder than usually helped for the same. Yes, I know that it´s the opposite of what one of you advised, but I had not described the issue with the loud strumming at that point.
I may try to add a second reverb that doesn´t deal with the transients, but sits at a lower volume and gives it spaceousness, and then I´ll try to see if these plugins which claim to transform an electric guitar sound into an acoustic one can do anything good. Does anybody have experience with such?

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[skipscada]

I listened to that ABBA track (oh, the horror...). The guitar isn't what I'd call HUGE, but it's certainly very prominent. That's partly due to the arrangement, which avoides competition in the high end (apart from the girls singing). It's clearly (at least) two strummed guitars, one in each channel, and there's practically nothing but top end in these. I'd say theres a chorus effect on them, although it could be something else giving a similar sound. The reverb is fairly subtle, isn't it? You're right about the transients - they're completely evened out in the ABBA track. Then there's another guitar part in the middle of the stereo image, with picked deeper notes.

I'd record two similar but different, compressed strummed parts, aggressively high-pass them, and run them through a subtle chorus effect. Then add a simple picked part in the middle and route all three through a subtle reverb. But keep the arrangement/mix in mind - for a guitar to sound prominent (huge!?), it needs to be given room.

How about sharing your results?

[federu]

Maybe get a an older guitar, say, from the sixties or seventees. I have several guitars and can say that the older do sound much bigger and have less treble and noise. Just the way they built them at that time, I guess. Much, much more body, way less agressive.
I'd agree also using a microphone if you want guitar rather than ovation sound.

[skipscada]

Actually, the very metallic guitar sound in that ABBA track makes me think of a resonator guitar, dobro, whatever you call it.

[Azura]

Strange that no one mentionned using a twelve string guitar. That's what I do when I want that kind of sound. Double tracking, 80% on both sides.

Marc

[Googly Smythe]

Dear All,

I just bought an amplied western guitar of the brand Morgan, which outputs a pretty decent signal into my mic/instr. amplifier that connects to the soundcard in my DAW.
If throw an amp plugin on it and a bit of delay, I get a nice jazz guitar sound, but I´d really like to achieve a bright big guitar sound like in for example ABBAs "When I kissed the teacher".
I know that layering the same being played is a step on the way, but what else should I think of? I´m not really pleased with the default outcome that sounds very flat to me. Tried playing with comp, eq and delay a bit but none of it got me even close.
Is there perhaps a magical plugin with exciters and stuff in it for this particular purpose?

Best Regards

Roman Empire

Strange that no one mentionned using a twelve string guitar. That's what I do when I want that kind of sound. Double tracking, 80% on both sides.

Marc

I think maybe because the OP wants to use his current instrument?

[skipscada]

Did a quick test. I haven't A/B-ed with the ABBA track, so it may be a bit off, but this is what I came up with in a couple of minutes:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/176 ... ar_001.mp3

Guitar: Epiphone Hummingbird (= dreadnought bodyshape), through built-in pickup/preamp
Strings: Rotosound JK11 (new)

1 channel G & C chords barré, panned 100 % to one side, high-pass, subtle chorus
1 channel G & C chords open, panned 100 % to the other side, high pass, subtle, slightly different chorus
Picked bass notes, panned centre, slight low shelf EQ, low-pass filter
All three tracks routed through a long reverb, but with a lot more dry signal than wet.

No compression at all.

All the effects are just basic effects that comes with host, Tracktion.

More or less does the trick, doesn't it?

[Roman Empire]

Did a quick test. I haven't A/B-ed with the ABBA track, so it may be a bit off, but this is what I came up with in a couple of minutes:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/176 ... ar_001.mp3

Guitar: Epiphone Hummingbird (= dreadnought bodyshape), through built-in pickup/preamp
Strings: Rotosound JK11 (new)

1 channel G & C chords barré, panned 100 % to one side, high-pass, subtle chorus
1 channel G & C chords open, panned 100 % to the other side, high pass, subtle, slightly different chorus
Picked bass notes, panned centre, slight low shelf EQ, low-pass filter
All three tracks routed through a long reverb, but with a lot more dry signal than wet.

No compression at all.

All the effects are just basic effects that comes with host, Tracktion.

More or less does the trick, doesn't it?

Seems like you have a better pickup than mine or another playing technique, cause sounds pretty damn fine. I wasn´t after emulating that particular ABBA song really, it was just the first song that came to mind when wanting to explain how I want the guitar sound.
Love the track though, how there´s this feeling of alot of small elements being in sync with eachother - not least due to the male backing vocals.
Anyway, I get the feeling that I should play with glows on, experiment more with effect settings, OR use a microphone. Here´s a quick preview on what I´m doing. On the first one two recordings panned hard left and right with hi pass, chorus, compressor and a bit of reverb to deal with the transients:

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/34/item ... uitar1.mp3

2nd recording is the same but with bodilizer, a vst that I found which can make the sound more acoustic-ish, actually improves the result in this case, I would say:

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/34/item ... uitar2.mp3

Let me hear if you got any advise.. maybe I should turn down the bass-knob on the guitar (just thought of it)?

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[skipscada]

Pickups on budget acoustics like ours are very hit-and-miss (mostly miss), according to those who claim to know. I'd never really thought of it as anything more than an easy way to plug in and get some sort of guitar sound for playing live. Actually, having done this little experiment, I think mine can be used for tasks where the sound will be buried in the mix, but it isn't a great guitar sound. Your sounds a bit like when I plug my semi-acoustic directly into my audio interface, which suggests to me that perhaps there's little resonance in your guitar to start with?

As for playing technique, when I want to avoid excessive attack when strumming, I play far away from the bridge, perhaps even where the neck hits the body, and with a soft pick. No gloves!

In general, I'd try to keep things simple and get things right at the source (playing, instrument, recording equipment).

Your recording seems to start with a certain body, then goes very thin. Perhaps ease off on the chorus, lower the frequency of the high-pass, place the reverb before the compressor, drop the compressor altogether ... try things like that first. Good luck!

[Roman Empire]

Pickups on budget acoustics like ours are very hit-and-miss (mostly miss), according to those who claim to know. I'd never really thought of it as anything more than an easy way to plug in and get some sort of guitar sound for playing live. Actually, having done this little experiment, I think mine can be used for tasks where the sound will be buried in the mix, but it isn't a great guitar sound. Your sounds a bit like when I plug my semi-acoustic directly into my audio interface, which suggests to me that perhaps there's little resonance in your guitar to start with?

As for playing technique, when I want to avoid excessive attack when strumming, I play far away from the bridge, perhaps even where the neck hits the body, and with a soft pick. No gloves!

In general, I'd try to keep things simple and get things right at the source (playing, instrument, recording equipment).

Your recording seems to start with a certain body, then goes very thin. Perhaps ease off on the chorus, lower the frequency of the high-pass, place the reverb before the compressor, drop the compressor altogether ... try things like that first. Good luck!

Ok, thanks. I tried some of that - gloves was a joke but perhaps there´s actually some way to make your strums softer, which I´ll try to think of what could be... and end up with the gloves

I tried playing up the neck instead, which actually made it sound worse which however could be due to experimenting with bass/treble setting on the guitars equalizer. So I guess what I´m gonna have to do here is make notes of different eq settings on the guitar and different locations to do the strumming and then go through different combinations, where afterwards I´ll be listening and find out which one is the optimal combination.

Have a good weekend!

Best Regards

Roman Empire