Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[OneOfManyPauls]

Do those waveforms make a huge difference? The only real thing i noticed about Monarks osc's is that the square wave sounded might fat. But i'm not sure if that's not a case of the sound engine, rather than the pure waveform.

Absolutely they do.

The little differences are where the character comes from. You'd be amazed how different raw oscillators on different synths can sound for the same supposed waveform shape.

[pdxindy]

However, i believe with (too much) effort, one could get close. But, as i stated before, why would you? There are far more capable synths out there which take way less effort, sound much better and were made for that particular sound.

Which sounds? Certainly not sounds with audio rate modulation or high resonance with cross modulation etc.

To recreate those aspects convincingly in software requires lots of cpu or the sound falls apart under more 'extreme' settings.

And what does get close mean? Again, I think that is only considering for a single static sound. Not for being able to tweak knobs in realtime while performing and still maintain the character and coherence of the sound.

With Icarus, even if you could spend a bunch of time get one specific sound reasonably close, as soon as you turned a knob it would be lost. That argument that people make about sounding close ignores playability. A MiniMoog can be played and tweaked and it has big wide sweet spots. To be close to a MiniMoog, you also have to capture that quality too. In that sense, Icarus cannot possibly come close.

[pdxindy]

Icarus does not begin to emulate a MiniMoog, or the Pro One and is simply not capable of doing so.

At least try it.

Here's a link to a file that contains 6 wavetables of 256 waveforms for each of the 6 Monark oscillator types:

There is no need to try it. I've used Icarus enough to know it cannot make those sorts of sounds to my satisfaction. And more importantly, as I mentioned, it completely misses the playability.

[Mac of BIOnighT]

So why don't you buy a Minimoog, wouldn't that make much more sense?

P.S.: with all due respect to that masterpiece and its creator, I don't think a MiniMoog could do 70% of the things Icarus can, does that detract from it?

[pdxindy]

Emulating "old synths" *because* Icarus has 'new' elements? Why invent the wheel again? For some proper minimoog-esque sounds, i have Monark. There is really no need to use Icarus for that. It is just inefficiënt. If you would like to, be my guest and good luck

Actually in Icarus you could go beyond what is possible in the original synth when using those waveforms.
This could start with "small" advanced features like HyperStereo Unison and could go much further.
You could also layer digital wavetable wit hthe analog style ones etc.

Personally with a synth like Icarus i would not limit myself using only the feature set of the original synth from which the waveforms were sampled. If you use the Monark waveforms for pads you already go beyond what is possible in Monark or a real Minimoog. Also morphing between waveforms with a wavetable is not possible in both Monark and a Minimoog Model D (bot hgot only fixed waveforms that could be switched).

All that is true... but you will still never get the sound of a MiniMoog or a Pro One out of Icarus... You will get all sorts of fun other stuff... but Icarus is hopelessly incapable of recreating the full range of sounds from a Mini or Pro One.

[pdxindy]

Icarus can't maybe sound like Monark, Diva or whatever but it can do ton of things these synths can't do.
If you want sounds like Monark or Diva....buy them!
Icarus also can't sound like a real Cello.... must be a bad synth
C'mon let it go....
Love it or leave it!!

I exactly made the point that not being able to emulate a Pro One or MiniMoog does not make it a bad synth

Icarus cannot begin to touch the audio rate modulations of Pro One. That is not a criticism of Icarus. in fact, I have not seen anyone talking about this who is criticizing Icarus. Just refuting the absurd claim that somehow being able to import a waveform from a particular synth means it sounds like it.

[recursive one]

I dodn't care if Icarus can or can't sound like a Minimoog, but to my ears it soudns kinda blurred, lacks presence, punch and detalization compared to Virus TI, Spire, Diversion, Serum or Bazille. These qualities I consider to be important for a synth sound, no matter if it is a dedicated analogue emulation or not.

[Ingonator]

All that is true... but you will still never get the sound of a MiniMoog or a Pro One out of Icarus... You will get all sorts of fun other stuff... but Icarus is hopelessly incapable of recreating the full range of sounds from a Mini or Pro One.

Actually i prefer to explore what is actually possible in Icarus using such wavetables based on other synths (including analog ones) instead of caring about what is NOT possible with those...

For example as mentioned earlier i am not really interested in recreating each Bass Station II patch i did on the real thing using the corresponding wavetables in Icarus. Anyway the PWM i got from Resynthesis is a great source for pad sounds and IMO for the sounds i would like to do that PWM sounds better than e.g. the default PWM available from the wavetable editor (in the INIT menu) wich has it's uses for certain patches too.

[pdxindy]

So why don't you buy a Minimoog, wouldn't that make much more sense?

P.S.: with all due respect to that masterpiece and its creator, I don't think a MiniMoog could do 70% of the things Icarus can, does that detract from it?

Not in the slightest...

Personally, I like Icarus for what it is good at... it is an unabashedly digital synth that sounds good... that is why I am planning to buy it

With RePro One, and a 1:1 hardware controller, I could perform with it up on stage without even having presets. I would feel confident to dial in the sounds I want during a performance. The architecture is simple and it is like one big sweet spot. I would never even consider doing that with Icarus or other complex synth. So while Icarus has a ton of features, that simple architecture with wide sweet spots is also its own feature... which Icarus, by the very fact of its complex structure, cannot emulate.

That is why I am glad to have both.

[pdxindy]

All that is true... but you will still never get the sound of a MiniMoog or a Pro One out of Icarus... You will get all sorts of fun other stuff... but Icarus is hopelessly incapable of recreating the full range of sounds from a Mini or Pro One.

Actually i prefer to explore what is actually possible in Icarus using such wavetables based on other synths (including analog ones) instead of caring about what is NOT possible with those...

I prefer that too. I am mentioning it because the claim was made it could sound like Monark... which it cannot.

[Mac of BIOnighT]

That is why I am glad to have both.

Yep

[exmatproton]

Wow..people really like to hear what they want to hear.

Icarus is an awesome synth with many, many possibilities. However, it is not created to emulate anything. It is made to explore and experiment (imho, in other words, that's what i use it for, in other words, that is it's strength). Monark (for example) is made to emulate a certain synth. If one would sample and convert sounds from Monark, they can be used to "get close" to Monark. But not by emulation, but by sampling. They real difference here is the way the OSC's work.

Also, the filter in Monark (+envelopes) are an emulation and do the minimoog-esque emulation at high sample rates much better then Icarus. Again, just try a simple saw + high resonance and do a nice slow sweep. You'll hear the difference in filters in a second.

Now, that having been said. I really don't get the discussion here. Icarus is a tool to sample (wavetables are samples). It is not made to emulate and i don't ask it to (i mean, i make abstract electronic music. I love Icarus to experiment). I use Icarus for completely different stuff. I use synths like Monark, Diva and Retrologue2 for "emulating". Because they are good in those things.

Again, by sampling those things, one could get close to emulating the synths the previous mentioned are based on, but it really isn't the same. At all. Just record and analyze it. You'll hear and see the differences. It is really easy.

[exmatproton]

All that is true... but you will still never get the sound of a MiniMoog or a Pro One out of Icarus... You will get all sorts of fun other stuff... but Icarus is hopelessly incapable of recreating the full range of sounds from a Mini or Pro One.

Actually i prefer to explore what is actually possible in Icarus using such wavetables based on other synths (including analog ones) instead of caring about what is NOT possible with those...

I prefer that too. I am mentioning it because the claim was made it could sound like Monark... which it cannot.

+1

[exmatproton]

However, i believe with (too much) effort, one could get close. But, as i stated before, why would you? There are far more capable synths out there which take way less effort, sound much better and were made for that particular sound.

Which sounds? Certainly not sounds with audio rate modulation or high resonance with cross modulation etc.

To recreate those aspects convincingly in software requires lots of cpu or the sound falls apart under more 'extreme' settings.

And what does get close mean? Again, I think that is only considering for a single static sound. Not for being able to tweak knobs in realtime while performing and still maintain the character and coherence of the sound.

With Icarus, even if you could spend a bunch of time get one specific sound reasonably close, as soon as you turned a knob it would be lost. That argument that people make about sounding close ignores playability. A MiniMoog can be played and tweaked and it has big wide sweet spots. To be close to a MiniMoog, you also have to capture that quality too. In that sense, Icarus cannot possibly come close.

"Get close" as in, close enough for certain tracks for instance. Where details aren't important at all (because of the mix of track. Or the way the synth is used).
"...certain sounds", as in, maybe a simple lead, or a filtered bass-like sound. Again, when it's details are less important.

[OneOfManyPauls]

I can use icarus to make a very good fist of many of the bread and butter patches from my analog hardware synths - why do people insist on taking that as meaning that I think Icarus is an analog emulation synth?

I originally said that Icarus can create decent analog patches - and I stand by that. Can it sound exactly the same as specific analog synths in every possible way? no. nobody said that - that's a straw-man argument.

the claim was made it could sound like Monark... which it cannot.

you really need to learn how to frame your assertions. Icarus can absolutely sound like Monark for some patches.

nobody said it could replicate every single patch.