Calling All Guitar Players - Real Guitar VS Vir 2

[elassi]

Here are some MusicLab examples:

Good job.

[b15fliptop]

Well, it's not just the RAM, it's the time it takes to load each instrument, and I have all of my samples on an SSD.

By finicky, I mean each guitar has page after page of settings, and you have to use a knob to scroll down each page of the settings. It can be really hard to remember where those settings are, if you need them later. Once you have one set up the way you think you want it, you have to repeat the whole process with each guitar. Also, you can use key switches, cc, or velocity to control different parameters, but getting those settings corrrect is problematic in a way that's hard to describe without first hand experience.

Basically, in the end, I spent a ton of money on Electri6ity thinking it was the be all and end all, and I never use it because of the complexity and, in my opinion, negligible difference in realism. In fact, MusicLab has the edge in realism with some articulations, and Vir2 in others, but not enough to make me want to use it. Also, in my experience, their support sucks. I've sent support requests that never received a response, and other times I've had to sleuth out a phone number (not on their site) to get help, and even then they acted annoyed.

Regarding MusicLab samples, I think they're all fine, except RealStrat. It has a very bright, thin sound, and you have to do some work to it before using it. Revalver's ACT input can help with this. And MusicLab's articulation control is much, much easier to setup and use.

This sounds like an anti-Vir2 rant, but I just want you to have a more complete picture before you spend a bunch of money. By all means, buy whatever appeals to you.

[b15fliptop]

Here are some MusicLab examples:

Good job.

Thank you!

[wagtunes]

Well, it's not just the RAM, it's the time it takes to load each instrument, and I have all of my samples on an SSD.

By finicky, I mean each guitar has page after page of settings, and you have to use a knob to scroll down each page of the settings. It can be really hard to remember where those settings are, if you need them later. Once you have one set up the way you think you want it, you have to repeat the whole process with each guitar. Also, you can use key switches, cc, or velocity to control different parameters, but getting those settings corrrect is problematic in a way that's hard to describe without first hand experience.

Basically, in the end, I spent a ton of money on Electri6ity thinking it was the be all and end all, and I never use it because of the complexity and, in my opinion, negligible difference in realism. In fact, MusicLab has the edge in realism with some articulations, and Vir2 in others, but not enough to make me want to use it. Also, in my experience, their support sucks. I've sent support requests that never received a response, and other times I've had to sleuth out a phone number (not on their site) to get help, and even then they acted annoyed.

Regarding MusicLab samples, I think they're all fine, except RealStrat. It has a very bright, thin sound, and you have to do some work to it before using it. Revalver's ACT input can help with this. And MusicLab's articulation control is much, much easier to setup and use.

This sounds like an anti-Vir2 rant, but I just want you to have a more complete picture before you spend a bunch of money. By all means, buy whatever appeals to you.

Thanks. I appreciate all this. It sounds like neither is a "perfect" solution and Vir 2 is more of a learning curve, time needed to make sound "real" issue than a sound issue, whereas by your own admission, Real Strat doesn't sound that great OOTB. So while Music Labs might be easier to use (and it does appear so based on the video tutorials I've watched) it seems that, with the extra effort, Vir 2 is more versatile and possibly, in the hands of an expert, more authentic sounding.

The professionally made Vir 2 demos that I've listened to, especially the classic riffs video, was jaw dropping. The Layla demo I could have sworn was just them ripping the record and pasting it online. But the MIDI was right there on display. And yes, a crap ton of keyswitching and work goes into these demos. It is not for somebody who doesn't want to spend more time programming than playing. Fortunately, for me, since I am more a composer than a player, I don't really care. I'll put in the needed time and effort to learn Vir 2 inside and out even if it takes months to do it. Why?

I've heard demos of Vir 2 that have truly impressed me. I have yet to hear anything by Music Labs that has impressed me "as much" even though I can't say that the demos I've heard don't sound good. And yes, the clean sound of the Real Guitar is excellent. But since I won't be processing anything clean (I'll be using Guitar Rig for everything) this is kind of a non issue. Vir 2 may need to be processed to sound good. That's fine, as that's what I intend to do anyway.

For $200 more (between the electrics and the acoustics I get more guitars and more flexibility, even if it is at the cost of a steeper learning curve. I can live with that.

Thank you. You did help me make my decision through the examples you posted. I'm just not hearing anything in Music Labs that's blowing me away to the point where I'm going "OMG, I have to get this" whereas Vir 2 stuff has impressed me a lot more. Of course I've looked at the MIDI so I can see that it didn't come easy.

I'm up for the challenge.

Thanks again for everything.

[b15fliptop]

Cool, good luck. I hope you'll be happy with it. Personally, I think their demos sound pretty unrealistic, but with some work they can sound better.

[davidsl222]

I play guitar pretty decently and like you need to program guitar with midi from time to time due to lack of ability to play cleanly what I hear. I posted this the other day in a similar thread:

Guitar VSTs that I have and use:

Ilya Eminov Electric and Acoustic (Regular and Strum - The best!)
Pettinhouse (just bought these on sale last week. I haven't spent much time with them yet.)
Imoact Sound Archtop (sounds great too.)
Heavyocity Scoring Guitars (different uses than a straight guitar but I like it very much)
EastWest various guitars. (I just started renting the EW at $29 a month and haven't spent much time with them yet.)
SugarBytes Guitar (good for getting ideas down. the sound is OK to good.)
NI Strummed Acoustic (great sound but limited patterns)
Acoustic Samples Sunbird (also sounds great)
Acoustic Samples Telematic (meh)

YMMV obviously but I'll say again that the Ilya Eminov guitar plugins are the most usable for me. The strum and chord programming really stand out to me. And for me that is important. Some guitar plugins don't seem thoughtfully designed (for me). I find that to be the biggest difference between the ones that I use. So if you can think about your work flow and how you plan to program the midi and what design works best for you and which plugins fit that bill then you'll save money and aggravation if you can figure that out before you buy.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[JonSolo]

I know you batted down Orangetree based on the strumming, but it really sounds the best.

The strumming just takes some getting used to. Honestly I use Orangetree for all of my lead, harmony, fill parts, and then drop over to a strummer like NI Strummer for my acoustic strumming.

Instead of trying to go one complete route, you might want to split it up like I have.

[wagtunes]

I know you batted down Orangetree based on the strumming, but it really sounds the best.

The strumming just takes some getting used to. Honestly I use Orangetree for all of my lead, harmony, fill parts, and then drop over to a strummer like NI Strummer for my acoustic strumming.

Instead of trying to go one complete route, you might want to split it up like I have.

If I were to go that route, splitting it up, then that's even more of an expense that I don't feel is warranted given that, IMO, Vir 2 sounds equally good for lead and rhythm.

[rossc]

Check out amplesound.net for another good option. They have demos of both their electric and acoustic guitar VST's and also have a sale on at the moment.

[spacekid]

LMAO. I gave up on that very quickly. I don't care how bad your think you play guitar. I think you should do it with a real one. Programming things takes a different set of skills then playing a real guitar..IMO it will never be a replacement for the things you will come up with while holding a real one in your hands..can be made to sound similar, but it's not very spontaneous.

Except I do have an advantage. As a guitar player, I know how to write as a guitar player. As I also know how to do extensive MIDI programming, I think I can combine the two things together.

Will it be easy? No. Here's what it will be. It will be easier than trying to get my 59 year old slightly arthritic hands to move as quickly as they did when I was 21. It's just not going to happen. The massive number of takes that I would have to record, not to mention the PITA of integrating a guitar (which, by the way, I sold my Strat last year so would have to buy a new one) with my DAW, makes using a library a no brainer. It will sound infinitely better than I will EVER sound. I just want the library that will get me the best sound possible.

From what I'm hearing from the Orange Tree demos so far, I am definitely not hearing $400 difference between it and Vir 2.

But I'm still demoing because this isn't a decision I want to make quickly.

You'll do fine with whatever you choose then. I'm not quite as old, but I gave myself arthritis and tore all my tendons once from playing hours(I mean around 9)straight. Anyhow, that took years to heal and gave me de quervain's
which limits the massive playing hours I used to enjoy. But it seems to get better with time.

[Compyfox]

Now there are no demo downloads of any of these. At least none that I can find. Makes sense as Vir2 stuff is 52 gig to download. So whatever decision I make has to be made on sound demos.

http://www.musiclab.com/download.html
Demos are right here, 30 days, no limitations.

Okay, moving on, I have listened to tons of sound demos of all of these. My ears, in all honesty, can't tell the difference, as far as realism goes, between them.

The only pros and cons I can go off of right now is price and number of guitars you're actually getting, which is really no way to make such a decision. But in summary.

Can't speak for Vir2, but it's darn expensive for Kontakt samples. Still, great selection of electric guitars if you ask me (I wish I had a Telecaster or Lipstick in Musiclab RealGuitar form).

The main big difference for Musiclab is the ease of play, the humanize engine, the "Joystick mode" (if you happen to have a Guitar Hero 3-6 controller lying around) and the Song Creation feature. New bonus features are "guitar doubling" (e-guitars only) and you can down tune the whole engine by one octave as well (RealEight already has a "bass mode", which does basically that) - for a pseudo bass mockup.

The Real Series, 3 guitars, $600

Musiclab does regular sales. You can get off way cheaper during those times.

I'd test the guitars first, then ask yourself what you might really need after you got used to the engine and it's sound design capabilities.

So those of you who are guitarists who own or at least have played both, which is the more realistic? Or are they both so close, as they sound to my ears, that it doesn't really matter?

Thanks for your help.

The "sound" and "realism" lies within the eye of the beholder.

To a lot of people, Musiclab sounds downright fake, thin and flat. But hey do forget that:

a) the EQ in the Guitar Engine is there for a reason (I pretty much always boost about 2-4dB of the LF if I need a more "bass-heavy" sound

b) the Acoustic guitars do need a lot of post EQ and compression

c) the electric guitars are directly recorded from the Pickups (no other circuit), so an LPF is sometimes needed, and of course the right amp chain. Aat bar minimum, I always recommend a compressor for clean sounds (RealStrat especially), and a boost pedal for more crunch/heavy sounds before hitting the amp (and hate me for that, but AT3/AT4 doesn't suite the RealGuitars well - but LePou or Ingite Amps and a good cabinet IR or TwoNotes Torpedo works wonders!).

d) adding "humanization" goes a long way if you program your parts strictly quantized (strumming especially)

Vir2's guitars on the other hand are powerful, have a huge bottom end right out of the box (same for Pettinhouse btw - great stuff for your money, sadly no "chord features" like with Musiclab). But for both, the learning curve is steep IMO (from what I've seen).

Personally I find Musiclab more intuitive (AmpleSound might be another solution, but the keyswitches and auto-keyswitch features are not as intuitive IMO, though here the "Guitar Tab Mode" is so much superior), but that's because I use these guitars for years at this point. I've also written a lot of helpful posts about them (see my KVR Marks). Most recently, in the thread about how to re-create "Recreating Hey There Delilah with RealGuitar" (you should read it).


In the end, it's up to you. What you feel the most comfortable with, how fast you get things done, is it intuitive to use (keyswitches), do you already have the UVI or Kontakt engine, etc.

Same goes for Drum Sample engines... the material only sounds as good as how much time you invest in terms of the performance.

Guitar VSTs that I have and use:

Half of them are Kontakt based (so samples), some of them UVI Engine (again, samples). So not necessarily VSTi right out of the box. But who am I to judge.

[wagtunes]

Now there are no demo downloads of any of these. At least none that I can find. Makes sense as Vir2 stuff is 52 gig to download. So whatever decision I make has to be made on sound demos.

http://www.musiclab.com/download.html
Demos are right here, 30 days, no limitations.

Snip...

Thanks for this. Very helpful.

Look, ultimately, this is what it comes down to for me.

1) Sound - Don't hear a ton of difference between any of the top brands though I do seem to favor Vir 2 slightly. Enough to justify the extra $200 for the two products? Well, that's what I'm here for.

2) Realism (as in number of articulations, and keyswitching smoothness) - Outside of Vir 2, haven't been able to find a lot of "quality" demos and tutorials demonstrating the mechanics of any of the other ones. The few I have found have been so-so. Ironically, the best Vir 2 ones were in Japanese so I basically had to follow what was going on visually, which wasn't always easy. But because the tutorials were so good, I got more out of them than all the English ones combined. If that doesn't make you laugh, nothing will. Point is, right now, just from what I've learned from tutorials, I already feel more comfortable with Vir 2 if for no other reason than the info from the other products is limited. At least on YouTube anyway.

3) Bang for the buck - Vir 2 seems to give you the most for your money. The other libraries, you get one guitar. So, in the case of Music Labs, you need to shell out $600 for 3 guitars. If the quality was mega tons above everything else, maybe I could see going for it. But given that I can barely tell any real difference at all, and in some cases prefer the Vir 2 sound, at least on the electric guitars, I almost feel like, value wise, I'm an idiot if I get anything else.

And the bottom line is this. In all 3 categories, no guitar clearly beats Vir 2. Close? Sure. I'll even go as far as to say, for practical purposes, probably just as good so that nobody but someone with a trained ear could tell the difference. So with all things being equal, assuming the articulations are which I can't verify one way or the other, it seems that bang for the buck wins out as the ultimate decider. In that case, Vir 2 wins by a mile.

Again, thanks to all. When I started this thread I really didn't know what to go with. But after listening to all the audios and watching as many videos as I could, I have a much better idea now and have probably made up my mind to go with Vir 2. I know some of you don't like it as much as Music Labs for ease of use and maybe even sound as well, but I can't see spending $600 on 3 guitars when for $800 I get 8 electrics and 6 acoustics. I mean we're not even in the same ball park.

And yes, I do have Kontakt (came with Komplete 9) so that's not a problem.

[BBFG#]

Now there are no demo downloads of any of these. At least none that I can find. Makes sense as Vir2 stuff is 52 gig to download. So whatever decision I make has to be made on sound demos.

http://www.musiclab.com/download.html
Demos are right here, 30 days, no limitations.
Snip...

Thanks for this. Very helpful.
Again, thanks to all. I know some of you don't like it as much as Music Labs for ease of use and maybe even sound as well, but I can't see spending $600 on 3 guitars...

Just to remind you that MusicLabs have pretty regular sales. So with a little patience, you shouldn't pay more than around $320. for the three, but IIRC, they have a pick three price during those sales that make them even cheaper.

[Compyfox]

wagtunes, really dive into my KVRmarks and the thread I mentioned. I posted links to great demos with rock and metal sounds in these posts.

In fact, also look for Javi Perera on Youtube.
He wrote the audio demo "Metal Ballad in C" with Vir2 guitars, but also created a great RealEight audio demo

Like I said... Vir2, great sound out of the box.. Musiclab - learning curve and knowledge on post processing needed. Demo the engines, read my posts, wait for a sale. No reason to rush things

[wagtunes]

Now there are no demo downloads of any of these. At least none that I can find. Makes sense as Vir2 stuff is 52 gig to download. So whatever decision I make has to be made on sound demos.

http://www.musiclab.com/download.html
Demos are right here, 30 days, no limitations.
Snip...

Thanks for this. Very helpful.
Again, thanks to all. I know some of you don't like it as much as Music Labs for ease of use and maybe even sound as well, but I can't see spending $600 on 3 guitars...

Just to remind you that MusicLabs have pretty regular sales. So with a little patience, you shouldn't pay more than around $320. for the three, but IIRC, they have a pick three price during those sales that make them even cheaper.

Would you happen to know if Vir 2 ever runs a sale? I would think probably not given the quality of the libraries and the price.

In either case, if either is going to run a sale, it's going to be around Christmas. Otherwise, I may not see one for some time and I want to start my project in January as I am taking December off from doing any new music.