Felix Salzer and Carl Schachter - Counterpoint in Composition
the best one till now, a lot of knowledge you can use in every project no matter what you are producing.
Advanced Music Theory?
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- KVRist
- 210 posts since 23 Feb, 2005
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- KVRAF
- 6804 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Theory can only take you so far. Experience takes you the rest of the way. Theory won't give you skills. Skills are developed.
Practice everyday. Practice Covers and try to write. Don't try to understand everything before you try writing. If you follow that path you'll never write anything because there is always some other great theory hiding in the wings you don't know.
Get to know whole songs, not just the part you like. Get used to performing. And most of all align yourself with someone who's abilities and knowledge exceed your own. You can't learn anything from someone who knows as little as you.
Practice everyday. Practice Covers and try to write. Don't try to understand everything before you try writing. If you follow that path you'll never write anything because there is always some other great theory hiding in the wings you don't know.
Get to know whole songs, not just the part you like. Get used to performing. And most of all align yourself with someone who's abilities and knowledge exceed your own. You can't learn anything from someone who knows as little as you.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRer
- 14 posts since 12 Jun, 2010 from USA
There are a few free resources available. Both "Google Books" or the "Internet Archive" have some old harmony and counterpoint books that are useful.
Frank Shepard's books are easy and modern enough for 1890.
Harmony Simplified (or something similar)
http://books.google.com/books?id=4MQPAA ... &q&f=false
How to Modulate (shorter verson of the above)
http://books.google.com/books?id=EcUPAA ... &q&f=false
Francis York's books:
Harmony Simplified
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Counterpoint Simplified
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Percy Goetschius
Book on form
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Exercises in melody writing (really good, I think)
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Another book on form
http://books.google.com/books?id=uwEtAA ... &q&f=false
Big book on counterpoint
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Frank Shepard's books are easy and modern enough for 1890.
Harmony Simplified (or something similar)
http://books.google.com/books?id=4MQPAA ... &q&f=false
How to Modulate (shorter verson of the above)
http://books.google.com/books?id=EcUPAA ... &q&f=false
Francis York's books:
Harmony Simplified
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Counterpoint Simplified
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Percy Goetschius
Book on form
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Exercises in melody writing (really good, I think)
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
Another book on form
http://books.google.com/books?id=uwEtAA ... &q&f=false
Big book on counterpoint
http://books.google.com/books/download/ ... %26hl%3Den
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 3 Mar, 2004 from Camarillo, CA
There is nothing that is more practical or more comprehensive than the Equal Interval System, a.k.a. "System of Horizontal Composition Based On Equal Intervals" or "E.I.S.". Just completing the first two books of the course will give you a completely new and original perspective on the architecture of music. www.equalinterval.com
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
seems to me there are a lot of options
if one were serious about this sort of thing my sense is finding some sort of mentor/teacher would be most advantageous
with the mentor approach and all others once the basics are down, some avenues will have much more appeal and response than others. 'advanced' study requires a differnt sort of motivation and feedback. some avenues will seem like a complete waste of time and others will resonate. and those can shift with time. It all depends.
my suggestion would be to find somebody who knows a lot that you don't and is patient enough to explain it
if one were serious about this sort of thing my sense is finding some sort of mentor/teacher would be most advantageous
with the mentor approach and all others once the basics are down, some avenues will have much more appeal and response than others. 'advanced' study requires a differnt sort of motivation and feedback. some avenues will seem like a complete waste of time and others will resonate. and those can shift with time. It all depends.
my suggestion would be to find somebody who knows a lot that you don't and is patient enough to explain it
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deleted deleted https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1
DELETED
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 3 Mar, 2004 from Camarillo, CA
I have been studying EIS privately for about three years. The following is re-posted from comments made by me and others at the vi-control.net forum:
Spud's definition of the course is "A 12 volume music composition course of horizontal line writing based on equal intervals".
At its core, the term "Equal Interval" refers to the motion of root tones. In traditional "tonal harmony" the root tones of chord progressions generally come from the tones of a major or minor scale. By definition, major and minor scales are different combinations of half-steps and whole-steps. The interval formula for a major scale is whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. So the intervalic terrain for root tones within tonal harmony is "unequal" by design.
At the very outset of EIS, one begins by learning to voice lead three note chord structures using "equal interval" root motions. There are six possible equal interval root motions. Using "C" as our starting point, they are:
1. Half-Steps, e.g., C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C.
2. Whole-Steps, e.g, C, D, E, F#, Ab, Bb, C.
3. Minor Thirds, e.g., C, Eb, Gb, A, C.
4. Major Thirds, e.g., C, E, G#, C.
5. Fourths, e.g., C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G, C.
6. Augmented Fourths, e.g., C, F#, C
EIS uses its own terminology for interval spacing. Within the EIS system, interval spacing begins with a "zero", just as a ruler begins with a "zero". So a unison is called "E0", a half-step is called "E1", a whole step is "E2", a minor 3rd is "E3" and so on up to E6.
There really isn't a root movement larger than an E6 (augmented fourth) in this system, because a fifth is really just an inverted fourth interval. At the beginning of the course you learn to voice-lead chord structures through all the "equal interval" root movements using ascending and descending motion, so you automatically learn to voice lead chord structures using every possible root motion, including those that are found in the "unequal" tonal systems. Complete freedom!
Here's a link to a portion of a homework assignment from page 30 of the course that I did about 3 years ago:
PDF
http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... tRoots.pdf
MP3
http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... tRoots.mp3
The first seven bars are from the "original" homework. They're all simple minor triads and the roots are ascending E2 (whole steps), a progression that doesn't exist in traditional/tonal systems of harmony. The treble triads are voice-lead according to the basic EIS theory called "Change of Position, Contrary to the Bass". There are passing tones inserted to make it smoother, more interesting and wonderfully symmetrical. I'll leave it to you to dissect what is going on from a vertical and horizontal basis. Note that all of this was conceived horizontally, one line at a time. So if you start your analysis from that basis, you'll have a chance of figuring out what is going on.
I then took that basic seven-bar progression and dressed it up three different ways (simple techniques from later on in the course). The resulting complexity and beauty is quite astonishing, especially considering the simple techniques that are used to compose it. There are at least seven MORE root structures that I could have used, and they could have been mixed randomly. This stuff spins out into "infinity" pretty quickly.
Here's more detail on "Change of Position, Contrary to the Bass":
In a vertical structure, such as
5
3
1
If the bass moves down, the treble voices go up that ladder. So imagine starting on C in the bass with a C triad on top:
G
E
C
If the bass moves down to Ab, then "1 becomes 3, 3 becomes 5, 5 becomes 1" (up that vertical structure).
For example
G (5 becomes 1) Ab
E (3 becomes 5) Eb
C (1 becomes 3) C
Bingo. Good voice leading. If Ab were then to go up to Db, then voice leading goes down the ladder:
Ab (1 becomes 5) Ab
Eb (5 becomes 3) F
C (3 becomes 1) Db
Here's what "change of position" means. In EIS the position of the chord is a different way of expressing an inversion. Instead of root position, first inversion, second inversion, you name it by what voice is on top (I think... it's been a while). So a standard triad is the "position of the 5th". First inversion is "position of the root". Second inversion is "position of the 3rd". So one way to look at the voice leading is that in moving from one chord to the next, we change position in order to achieve smooth voice leading.
It works for other structures, too (3 5 7, 5 7 9 11, etc). In some kinds of vertical structures you get better voice leading by doing "double 2 voice voice leading" (that's probably not the name... my books are elsewhere). For example:
13 <-> 9
10 <-> 7
9 <-> 13
7 <-> 10
This stuff, all from books 1 and 2 is all basic building blocks - the mechanics of how things move when things get really wild later on. But it does straighten things out and explain things like voice leading in a way that makes a lot of sense to me (and a lot of other people). Up or down, regardless of key or interval, there's really just the one approach.
Spud's definition of the course is "A 12 volume music composition course of horizontal line writing based on equal intervals".
At its core, the term "Equal Interval" refers to the motion of root tones. In traditional "tonal harmony" the root tones of chord progressions generally come from the tones of a major or minor scale. By definition, major and minor scales are different combinations of half-steps and whole-steps. The interval formula for a major scale is whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. So the intervalic terrain for root tones within tonal harmony is "unequal" by design.
At the very outset of EIS, one begins by learning to voice lead three note chord structures using "equal interval" root motions. There are six possible equal interval root motions. Using "C" as our starting point, they are:
1. Half-Steps, e.g., C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C.
2. Whole-Steps, e.g, C, D, E, F#, Ab, Bb, C.
3. Minor Thirds, e.g., C, Eb, Gb, A, C.
4. Major Thirds, e.g., C, E, G#, C.
5. Fourths, e.g., C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G, C.
6. Augmented Fourths, e.g., C, F#, C
EIS uses its own terminology for interval spacing. Within the EIS system, interval spacing begins with a "zero", just as a ruler begins with a "zero". So a unison is called "E0", a half-step is called "E1", a whole step is "E2", a minor 3rd is "E3" and so on up to E6.
There really isn't a root movement larger than an E6 (augmented fourth) in this system, because a fifth is really just an inverted fourth interval. At the beginning of the course you learn to voice-lead chord structures through all the "equal interval" root movements using ascending and descending motion, so you automatically learn to voice lead chord structures using every possible root motion, including those that are found in the "unequal" tonal systems. Complete freedom!
Here's a link to a portion of a homework assignment from page 30 of the course that I did about 3 years ago:
http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... tRoots.pdf
MP3
http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... tRoots.mp3
The first seven bars are from the "original" homework. They're all simple minor triads and the roots are ascending E2 (whole steps), a progression that doesn't exist in traditional/tonal systems of harmony. The treble triads are voice-lead according to the basic EIS theory called "Change of Position, Contrary to the Bass". There are passing tones inserted to make it smoother, more interesting and wonderfully symmetrical. I'll leave it to you to dissect what is going on from a vertical and horizontal basis. Note that all of this was conceived horizontally, one line at a time. So if you start your analysis from that basis, you'll have a chance of figuring out what is going on.
I then took that basic seven-bar progression and dressed it up three different ways (simple techniques from later on in the course). The resulting complexity and beauty is quite astonishing, especially considering the simple techniques that are used to compose it. There are at least seven MORE root structures that I could have used, and they could have been mixed randomly. This stuff spins out into "infinity" pretty quickly.
Here's more detail on "Change of Position, Contrary to the Bass":
In a vertical structure, such as
5
3
1
If the bass moves down, the treble voices go up that ladder. So imagine starting on C in the bass with a C triad on top:
G
E
C
If the bass moves down to Ab, then "1 becomes 3, 3 becomes 5, 5 becomes 1" (up that vertical structure).
For example
G (5 becomes 1) Ab
E (3 becomes 5) Eb
C (1 becomes 3) C
Bingo. Good voice leading. If Ab were then to go up to Db, then voice leading goes down the ladder:
Ab (1 becomes 5) Ab
Eb (5 becomes 3) F
C (3 becomes 1) Db
Here's what "change of position" means. In EIS the position of the chord is a different way of expressing an inversion. Instead of root position, first inversion, second inversion, you name it by what voice is on top (I think... it's been a while). So a standard triad is the "position of the 5th". First inversion is "position of the root". Second inversion is "position of the 3rd". So one way to look at the voice leading is that in moving from one chord to the next, we change position in order to achieve smooth voice leading.
It works for other structures, too (3 5 7, 5 7 9 11, etc). In some kinds of vertical structures you get better voice leading by doing "double 2 voice voice leading" (that's probably not the name... my books are elsewhere). For example:
13 <-> 9
10 <-> 7
9 <-> 13
7 <-> 10
This stuff, all from books 1 and 2 is all basic building blocks - the mechanics of how things move when things get really wild later on. But it does straighten things out and explain things like voice leading in a way that makes a lot of sense to me (and a lot of other people). Up or down, regardless of key or interval, there's really just the one approach.
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 16 Jan, 2017
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Hi jsaras, Just want to ask would you allow me to buy from you a copy of your EIS instruction book 1 and 2?I went into Amazon.com and this book is out print and am not able to buy it.
If you allow me to buy a copy from you, I would send you the money via paypal account.
Kindly let me know.
my email is jeremylum6@gmail.com (mailto:jeremylum6@gmail.com)
Very much appreciated
Thim
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 3 Mar, 2004 from Camarillo, CA
For better or worse the only way to obtain the books at this point in time is to be enrolled in the course with a teacher. I can help you with that.
If you're resourceful enough you may be able to borrow a copy from either the Pasadena City College library or the Library of Congress using the inter-library loan process.
If you're resourceful enough you may be able to borrow a copy from either the Pasadena City College library or the Library of Congress using the inter-library loan process.
