Anyone have any experiences both for music making and general usage (day to day use, productivity, gaming, etc) of windows tablets or 2in1s? Ive been thinking strongly of moving to something like an acer switch12 instead of upgrading my ipad but figured Id try to gather some experiences first.
One thing I will miss is mostly gadget, but I figured having something like bitwig and my entire vst library would more than make up for that
Windows tablet/2in1 experiences?
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- KVRian
- 793 posts since 27 Oct, 2011 from Pacific Northwest
I switched from many years of the iPad to a Microsoft Surface Pro 1.5 years ago. I very much enjoyed the iPad and used it all the time for music. But when it came time for me to really think about upgrading my iPad 4, I ended up moving to the Surface Pro. I couldn't be happier with the decision. A year and a half later I still can't believe at times how well it has worked out for me and my family.
For general use it has been great for web browsing. My youngest watches Netflix on it all the time. Both of my kids do their school papers on it using Google Docs. The Surface on its own isn't ideal for Google Docs, so I'll hook up a USB keyboard/mouse which makes it a lot more comfortable to use.
For gaming, it has been a real treat. But I should mention, I don't play recent games. I've always been someone who plays older games. I use Steam and some games I'm currently playing are "KOTOR II: The Sith Lords", "Roller Coaster Tycoon 3", "Dungeon Siege", "Star Wars: Empire At War", Civ IV and CIV V. All of these are smooth and play very well. KOTORII I did have to turn down some graphics, and smoke areas give me like 1 FPS, so glad these are very rare cases.
For music it has been working very well. It is basically my first time using VSTs so I don't really have much to compare it with. I had been using hardware synths only for 25 years until I started using the iPad. My current setup I'm using Ableton Live with Synthmaster, Alchemy, Omnisphere and Addictive Keys. For the most part, it runs very smooth. Omnisphere is where I sometimes run into crackle. Mainly with some Multis. But I hear of other people having similar issues, so without an extremely powerful machine, it's inevitable. But honestly, I can do pretty much everything I need. I don't do any recording, though, so I can't say how something with multiple tracks is handled. I play live and use Ableton to maintain my sounds for a set. I have many sounds with several layers going at once and there is no glitching at all. Even with Omnisphere, I use multi-layers quite often without any problems. Just last week I started working on using Lemur (on the iPad) to control Ableton.
One negative is having only one USB port. I sometimes have to hook up a hub to get multiple items connected. The screen resolution is also so high, that some VSTs end up having extremely tiny text and controls.
My personal experience has been great. My main use is gaming and music and my kids use it for other things. I really like using touch, even if an app is not necessarily made/designed for touch. It turns out, I don't actually use the stylus. I thought I'd use it in my DAW/VSTs but I end up just using the Touch pad on the keyboard or I'll use my finger.
For general use it has been great for web browsing. My youngest watches Netflix on it all the time. Both of my kids do their school papers on it using Google Docs. The Surface on its own isn't ideal for Google Docs, so I'll hook up a USB keyboard/mouse which makes it a lot more comfortable to use.
For gaming, it has been a real treat. But I should mention, I don't play recent games. I've always been someone who plays older games. I use Steam and some games I'm currently playing are "KOTOR II: The Sith Lords", "Roller Coaster Tycoon 3", "Dungeon Siege", "Star Wars: Empire At War", Civ IV and CIV V. All of these are smooth and play very well. KOTORII I did have to turn down some graphics, and smoke areas give me like 1 FPS, so glad these are very rare cases.
For music it has been working very well. It is basically my first time using VSTs so I don't really have much to compare it with. I had been using hardware synths only for 25 years until I started using the iPad. My current setup I'm using Ableton Live with Synthmaster, Alchemy, Omnisphere and Addictive Keys. For the most part, it runs very smooth. Omnisphere is where I sometimes run into crackle. Mainly with some Multis. But I hear of other people having similar issues, so without an extremely powerful machine, it's inevitable. But honestly, I can do pretty much everything I need. I don't do any recording, though, so I can't say how something with multiple tracks is handled. I play live and use Ableton to maintain my sounds for a set. I have many sounds with several layers going at once and there is no glitching at all. Even with Omnisphere, I use multi-layers quite often without any problems. Just last week I started working on using Lemur (on the iPad) to control Ableton.
One negative is having only one USB port. I sometimes have to hook up a hub to get multiple items connected. The screen resolution is also so high, that some VSTs end up having extremely tiny text and controls.
My personal experience has been great. My main use is gaming and music and my kids use it for other things. I really like using touch, even if an app is not necessarily made/designed for touch. It turns out, I don't actually use the stylus. I thought I'd use it in my DAW/VSTs but I end up just using the Touch pad on the keyboard or I'll use my finger.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1594 posts since 16 Jan, 2010 from Denver
thanks, that was exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. I do play alot of games, but I generally assumed that ones that I would be playing on it would be the older ones in the steam catalog or ones from gog. I mainly use the ipad for board-type games and more casual and strategy fare so Id be looking at things like civ5 and rise of nations, rct3, etc like you did.
I also figured it may not be able to handle multiple synth vsts at once but if you've only hit an issue with omnisphere occasionally that could just be patch specific.
overall sounds like it may be worth it to make the switch
I also figured it may not be able to handle multiple synth vsts at once but if you've only hit an issue with omnisphere occasionally that could just be patch specific.
overall sounds like it may be worth it to make the switch
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- KVRian
- 793 posts since 27 Oct, 2011 from Pacific Northwest
I forgot to mention a site you may find useful. It helped me when making my decision. Check out Surface Pro Audio. http://surfaceproaudio.com/ Robin has videos running through various tests on Surface Pro 3 and 4. He shows how many tracks he can add before crackling occurs. You may not be interested in the Surface, but you can compare similar specs.
Regarding Omnisphere, yes, it does seem to come down to specific patches and when part of a Multi, it really crackles. But I have some layers with 3, 4, and 5 parts of Omnisphere playing layered pads, with layered bass and an arp or two playing at once.
For gaming, I think it is able to handle some recent games, but I just tend to buy older games. I just got on Steam a year ago and kind of started buying games I played 10-15 years ago so I can play them on a modern computer without the need of the CD. Look up YouTube and Surface Pro gaming examples. There is also a Reddit board for Surface Gaming, but it's kind of quiet. One thing I did was I have started installing my games on an SD card so I can use the SSD space specifically for VSTs/samples.
I still highly recommend finding out as much as you can about the specific hybrid/2in1 you are interested in. I see both a Switch 12 and an Alpha Switch 12. Not sure which of these you are interested in. I do recommend looking for at least an i5 and 256 GB. The i3 can probably perform decently, but may not get you too far. I went to Best Buy and checked out a bunch of the options. I touched them, picked them up, and actually saw how they go between tablet and keyboard. I watched the videos from Surface Pro Audio so I saw for sure how things would work. That was a HUGE help. Even so, since he didn't demo Omnisphere I was somewhat worried when I first loaded it up that my computer just wasn't going to handle it as I had heard of Omni's CPU requirements.
Regarding Omnisphere, yes, it does seem to come down to specific patches and when part of a Multi, it really crackles. But I have some layers with 3, 4, and 5 parts of Omnisphere playing layered pads, with layered bass and an arp or two playing at once.
For gaming, I think it is able to handle some recent games, but I just tend to buy older games. I just got on Steam a year ago and kind of started buying games I played 10-15 years ago so I can play them on a modern computer without the need of the CD. Look up YouTube and Surface Pro gaming examples. There is also a Reddit board for Surface Gaming, but it's kind of quiet. One thing I did was I have started installing my games on an SD card so I can use the SSD space specifically for VSTs/samples.
I still highly recommend finding out as much as you can about the specific hybrid/2in1 you are interested in. I see both a Switch 12 and an Alpha Switch 12. Not sure which of these you are interested in. I do recommend looking for at least an i5 and 256 GB. The i3 can probably perform decently, but may not get you too far. I went to Best Buy and checked out a bunch of the options. I touched them, picked them up, and actually saw how they go between tablet and keyboard. I watched the videos from Surface Pro Audio so I saw for sure how things would work. That was a HUGE help. Even so, since he didn't demo Omnisphere I was somewhat worried when I first loaded it up that my computer just wasn't going to handle it as I had heard of Omni's CPU requirements.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1594 posts since 16 Jan, 2010 from Denver
yea last night I found that surfaceproaudio review of bitwig so I had watched all of that
An fyi for touch gaming, if you want a fairly updated least of steam games and how well they work with touch check this curator: http://store.steampowered.com/curator/6 ... dly-games/
Seems fairly up to date and a large list with comments on how well various games work
The one I was looking at was the alpha switch 12, https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product. ... 6834315717
So it has an i5-6200u, 8gb ram, and a 256gb ssd with a microsd input. So it seemed to match fairly well to an SP4. Also wanted to find one that used the actual i*-u processors since the newer 'm' chips that alot of 2in1's are using while newer clock themselves much much lower and tend to throttle alot more, so you get half the performance of the older chips all in the name of less heat/noise/fanless. The good thing about the alpha switches though is that they have a liquid cooled setup so you can still get the i* performance but with no noise
An fyi for touch gaming, if you want a fairly updated least of steam games and how well they work with touch check this curator: http://store.steampowered.com/curator/6 ... dly-games/
Seems fairly up to date and a large list with comments on how well various games work
The one I was looking at was the alpha switch 12, https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product. ... 6834315717
So it has an i5-6200u, 8gb ram, and a 256gb ssd with a microsd input. So it seemed to match fairly well to an SP4. Also wanted to find one that used the actual i*-u processors since the newer 'm' chips that alot of 2in1's are using while newer clock themselves much much lower and tend to throttle alot more, so you get half the performance of the older chips all in the name of less heat/noise/fanless. The good thing about the alpha switches though is that they have a liquid cooled setup so you can still get the i* performance but with no noise
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- KVRAF
- 5179 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
I find 12" way to small compared to the 4:3 12.9" iPad Pro f.e.
In general i find the multi touch experience not good compared to iOS. But i hadn´t much time to test it inside out.
I would love to have a 15" multi-touch i7 quadcore.
I still think windows lacks too much good multi-touch apps.
I wish some iOS developers would make windows 10 versions of their apps and i would buy one in a heartbeat.
But well speced iPads are expensive like a full blown notebook these days. And iOS itself is (for me) still a blown up iPhone OS.
I´m very interested to see what the Surface Pro 5 might look. I just hope they will do bigger versions. 12.3" is too small for me.
In general i find the multi touch experience not good compared to iOS. But i hadn´t much time to test it inside out.
I would love to have a 15" multi-touch i7 quadcore.
I still think windows lacks too much good multi-touch apps.
I wish some iOS developers would make windows 10 versions of their apps and i would buy one in a heartbeat.
But well speced iPads are expensive like a full blown notebook these days. And iOS itself is (for me) still a blown up iPhone OS.
I´m very interested to see what the Surface Pro 5 might look. I just hope they will do bigger versions. 12.3" is too small for me.
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- KVRian
- 793 posts since 27 Oct, 2011 from Pacific Northwest
ezelkow1, Wow!!! Thanks for that Steam list. I had not seen it before. I actually have several of those games on the iPad but very few of them on the computer. Some items on there I am now interested in picking up. 
That Alpha Switch looks really nice. I might keep my eye on that series for the future. By the way, I have a Surface Pro 3, so the components you are looking at will perform even better than what I mentioned.
Yeah, the lack of multi-touch apps is glaring and a bummer. I'm starting to look at using Lemur (iPad/iPhone) for controlling my synths which will allow multi-touch if I want to use it. I am using my wife's old iPad Mini which sits nicely on the left side of my synth.
That Alpha Switch looks really nice. I might keep my eye on that series for the future. By the way, I have a Surface Pro 3, so the components you are looking at will perform even better than what I mentioned.
Yeah, the lack of multi-touch apps is glaring and a bummer. I'm starting to look at using Lemur (iPad/iPhone) for controlling my synths which will allow multi-touch if I want to use it. I am using my wife's old iPad Mini which sits nicely on the left side of my synth.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1594 posts since 16 Jan, 2010 from Denver
Yea i went ahead and ordered that switch yesterday. For gaming it sounds like just about anything done on the unity engine is basically already touch compatible, which accounts for a ton of the smaller games on steam.
Should be interesting to see how some programs respond. From what Ive gathered ableton may be a pita to use with a touchscreen, bitwig obviously supports it, studio one is supposed to have fairly good support, the last one I dont know about is reason. It would be great to be able to use reason with touch so we'll have to see how well it works
I have found a couple windows touch apps that act like lemur/touchable for ableton, so there are some options out there for remote usage as well
Should be interesting to see how some programs respond. From what Ive gathered ableton may be a pita to use with a touchscreen, bitwig obviously supports it, studio one is supposed to have fairly good support, the last one I dont know about is reason. It would be great to be able to use reason with touch so we'll have to see how well it works
I have found a couple windows touch apps that act like lemur/touchable for ableton, so there are some options out there for remote usage as well
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- KVRian
- 793 posts since 27 Oct, 2011 from Pacific Northwest
Hey! Fantastic! Enjoy!
I use Ableton and its really not geared for such high resolution and touch input. The buttons/controls are very small. Even trying to tap a scene for playing. I pretty much stick to using the keyboard/touchpad. But for Live, that's where Lemur will come in. I hope to control playing scenes/clips as well as making adjustments to sounds all with nice, big buttons and faders.
Here is a video using Reason on the Surface Pro 3: http://surfaceproaudio.com/running-reas ... ace-pro-3/
By the way, as you may have found out, the whole throttling issue can be a problem. I highly recommend making your own Profiles geared specifically to tasks. I have one for "Old Gaming" which tries to hold the CPU below a certain percent. I can't remember what value exactly offhand but it definitely helps keep the fan from turning on as much and seems to hold back on processing as I expect. I also have a "Music" Profile that kicks up some of the options. The thing is, I rarely need to even use that Music one. Most of what I do seems to keep up even using the lower settings. Look up Connected Standby and getting into the deeper Profile options. With some fine-tuning, you can get your CPU to stay at a good pace and diminish throttling that may otherwise happen. Won't prevent it 100%, but can delay it and not reach it as often.
I use Ableton and its really not geared for such high resolution and touch input. The buttons/controls are very small. Even trying to tap a scene for playing. I pretty much stick to using the keyboard/touchpad. But for Live, that's where Lemur will come in. I hope to control playing scenes/clips as well as making adjustments to sounds all with nice, big buttons and faders.
Here is a video using Reason on the Surface Pro 3: http://surfaceproaudio.com/running-reas ... ace-pro-3/
By the way, as you may have found out, the whole throttling issue can be a problem. I highly recommend making your own Profiles geared specifically to tasks. I have one for "Old Gaming" which tries to hold the CPU below a certain percent. I can't remember what value exactly offhand but it definitely helps keep the fan from turning on as much and seems to hold back on processing as I expect. I also have a "Music" Profile that kicks up some of the options. The thing is, I rarely need to even use that Music one. Most of what I do seems to keep up even using the lower settings. Look up Connected Standby and getting into the deeper Profile options. With some fine-tuning, you can get your CPU to stay at a good pace and diminish throttling that may otherwise happen. Won't prevent it 100%, but can delay it and not reach it as often.
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- KVRer
- 21 posts since 30 Sep, 2015 from Sweden
Thanks for the great links in this thread. I have had a small Asus 2in1 for about a year and enjoy the possibility to touch for mixing and using the keyboard/mouse for editing. Will get something similar but with a bigger screen soon (and more RAM is probably a good idea as well...).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1594 posts since 16 Jan, 2010 from Denver
Its been going good but I havent had much of a chance to test it music wise. I used it on a trip and had a bunch of my steam library installed. Worked out great for that
Ive been waiting on a larger microsd to come in for storage of sample libs and vst sample libs before I install more of those
Ive been waiting on a larger microsd to come in for storage of sample libs and vst sample libs before I install more of those
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- KVRian
- 793 posts since 27 Oct, 2011 from Pacific Northwest
I've been putting games on the microSD and samples on the built-in SSD. For now, my sample libraries are maintainable on the SSD. I'm worried what I will do if I ever get Kontakt.
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- KVRAF
- 1894 posts since 12 Mar, 2004
For music the ipad is way better than the surface, not for power or available software, but because you can use it, most desktop music software on touchscreen is horrid, impossible to use menus, some dials wont even turn, mouse hitpoint impossibly small.
My windows tablet is used mainly for Remixlive now
My windows tablet is used mainly for Remixlive now
Duh
