Need some newbie advice with DAWs?

[CTStump]

I certainly wasn't implying that you should learn something else just using my own experience as an example.

If a tracker gets the job done for ya than thats what you should use.

I myself got to get back to learning new tricks... With the 5 or 6 DAW's that need tending too, I know, I'm in over my head and 399 in dog years.

[James Melody]

By the way, a couple of people mentioned "piano roll". I wasn't really familiar with what this is, but I've now researched it, and as far as I can understand, with DAWs, the default view of each note is TINY, and too small to edit notes. Therefore, in order to edit the notes of a track you have to go into "piano roll" mode which (correct me if I'm wrong) is basically just a zoomed in view of that track. So "piano rolling" just means zooming in on a track so you can see all the notes clearly.

In other words, with DAWs, you can only edit and view one track at a time in any detail, and simply editing notes requires you to go into a whole different viewing mode! I really can't see the benefit of this way of working. Surely it's far better to always see all the note data all the time, big and clear? Or is there something amazing about "piano rolls" that I am missing?

[EnGee]

I think jancivil meant ASIO "Driver" that comes standard with any external audio interface (or sound card). ASIO driver can do low latency that other kinds might not be able to. Of course you don't have to buy one. You can use the integrated sound card in your motherboard (most of them can do 24bit/44.1 khz anyway!) with a free driver like Asio4All.

Most DAWs come with 'special' drivers for sound cards that has low latency. Some DAWs don't and in this case you need an ASIO driver (I'm talking about Windows of course). Asio4All (http://www.asio4all.com/) is a free driver that can be used in this case.

Regarding the Piano rolls, yes you are missing something, but not very far from truth. Most Piano rolls now support more than one channel to be displayed in one window. I can't say which is better because I don't know how to use a tracker (although I know the idea). Midi editing in some DAWs is fantastic really and you can see many info (for me it is more than enough really!):

Cubase_PianoRoll.JPG

[James Melody]

Thanks for that EnGee.

I like the fact everyone has a different way of making music, and different things are important to each person. It would be a boring world if we were all the same!

Also thanks for whoever tidied up the abuse on this thread

[jancivil]

By the way, a couple of people mentioned "piano roll". I wasn't really familiar with what this is, but I've now researched it, and as far as I can understand, with DAWs, the default view of each note is TINY, and too small to edit notes.

... with DAWs, you can only edit and view one track at a time in any detail, and simply editing notes requires you to go into a whole different viewing mode!

Again, you create fictitious problems with your prejudging. You seem to seek out reading that is circular to wanting to hate DAW workflow. And you seem so sure it's right.

The way I work is select all the tracks I want to work with, which is practically always all of it, and open Key Editor (aka piano roll) in Cubase. There is a simple toggle in this editor, on means when you select notes only the part you're in are selectable; off means all the parts' notes are selectable.
And I take up ~96% of the screen with Key Editor; I leave space at the top for the project window to show so I click there. The notes are pretty big! Because of a big screen. Simple.
And I have a key command for open project window.

I move from editing MIDI (also in the List Editor, command-L) to working with audio and I mix as I go, so once I'm done composing there is just a final mix. I get on great. You have such a bad attitude to this It's getting comical.

[jancivil]

Samples but no ASIO soundcard will soon mean a long lag {latency} between hitting a key and hearing the note (more or less abated by adopting the proper drivers). You're stuck in the mud, through your choice.

There's too much that doesn't add up here, is why people say 'troll'.

I don't know why me not having a sound card would make anyone think I was a troll. You know I've never used a DAW before, so why would I have needed to buy a soundcard?

I'm not the one who's sure you're a troll. I think I articulated the problem well enough.

You seem ready to google and find shit, why would you not have found that people use audio interfaces with proper drivers? .

[jancivil]

What is your problem with VST exactly?

I've just had a think about this and I actually have 7 problems with VSTs. So here they all are...

My 7 basic problems with VSTs
(Based on my limited knowledge and possibly misunderstanding about how VSTs work.)

1. First of all, ...
Put simply, I would like to use my own samples in my music! I had thought that this was impossible in DAWs because every instrument had to be a VST. I now know that you can do it with "samplers". But still, the whole VST way of working is not geared towards people using their own samples.

No. Samplers are VSTis, except when they're AU [for eg., Logic] or MAS [for Digital Performer], or AAX [for Pro Tools]. (Do they still make DXI? Don't know.)
EG: Kontakt is a VST plugged into Cubase. You can load your own samples into it, and you can apply all sorts of magic to it in there. Slice 'em, dice 'em, stretch 'em, recombine 'em... Creativity, yea.

You can import your samples into the Host (eg Cubase) DAW and edit them all kinda ways in there. DAWs are as 'geared towards' working with samples as it gets. To create fictions about how it all works is strange to me.

2. Another concern I've had about VSTs is that they slow you down, since you can't simply "cycle" through all your instruments like with a tracker, instead each instrument must be loaded and accessed through its own interface.

Fine, use a tracker. But, Ableton Live is kind of itself a big sampler thingy.

3. Another concern is that I presume each VST uses CPU/memory. Just a personal thing but I hate big software. I like programs to be as lightweight and simple as possible.

Well, it's computers. The more muscle you have the more is possible. So stick with a tracker. Why are you bothering us with all this?

4. ... so you can't mix while looking at your composition.

Opening the Cubase mixer is <hit F3>.

5. Then there's the inconsistency of each VST having a different interface.

Redundant. See my reply to #2 (& #3).

6. Another thing about me is that I am BIG on organization
To use an analogy, it's like if I went in my closet and I wasn't allowed to organize all the socks together, or all the sweaters together, but instead I had to keep all the different LABELS together. That kind of thing really irritates me personally.

Yeah, no. Unless keeping samples in the Kontakt Library folder vs projects in Cubase's folder typa thing is just squalor to you. I'm big on organization. See my reply to #2 some more again.

7. Finally, I really don't like the whole principle of there being some kind of "middle man" program between the DAW and the samples.

Well, the reason for this, in the DAWs that aren't that, is people want the workflow of the other applications and it would be ridiculous for the DAW to be all things to all these people. People want the sound of this vendor's product vs other sounds. Look around, there's a whole forum here. Cf., reply to #2.

on the 'a millisecond's pause'.

Sorry, I didn't mean a literal millisecond, I just meant having to pause for a slight amount of time.

For example, I play a drum riff which ends with a cymbal crash. I want to hit that crash BANG ON the beat. So if whatever tools I was using to make these noises slowed me down by, like quarter of a second, then I wouldn't be able to hit the crash on time and it would put me off the tune I am composing.

Yeah, you're going to need a pro soundcard for this. And a pretty strong computer. And some knowledge about running a system to do this. Sorry, this is a giant can of worms. If you want a really simple life with a tracker, use the friggen tracker and forget about the grandeur all this complexity affords one in comparison.

[CTStump]

.....Sorry, this is a giant can of worms. If you want a really simple life with a tracker, use the friggen tracker and forget about the grandeur all this complexity affords one in comparison.

All those replies and that is your conclusion?

That is what the OP concluded a page or so ago. I don't see the need for hostility in your answers to his needs or perceptions he was clear at least as far as he was concerned. It may be true that his grasp of the tech is prejudicial and and little narrow but he is trying to understand maybe not the way you might think.

Your being a little impatient with his replies and writing as if you shouldn't be participating and maybe it would be better to not reply if it is so nerve racking(I'm exaggerating a bit...maybe). KVR has the combined knowledge of pretty much the whole of the DAW world and should be the place for these exact topics... Whether someone feels the subject is an attempt at futility or not.

If you don't like it than stay away and let others contribute as they feel the need. I think the guy made the right choice minus any extraneous debate.

Another 2 cents worth.

[DJ Warmonger]

2. I also find it much easier to set up my notes in a tracker, you can just use the keyboard to move the cursor onto the note and type how you want it to sound. This, to me, seems much more powerful. From what I can tell, when you set up your notes in DAWs, you have to use the mouse, start clicking on notes, and selecting options and menus. Not to mention that each note in a DAW seems to occupy way less space on the screen, making it even harder to locate with the mouse. To me, this seems nowhere near as simple as just "typing" how you want the notes to sound. It's like the difference between me typing the word "table" in a text editor, and me trying to create the word "table" by clicking on menus and piecing the word together.

So use the goddamn tracker. What's the point of visiting this forum is you still claim that copper tablet is better that a smartphone? You are looking for a replacement for something that is inferior and obsolete, and you're not willing to learn about new, better solutions.

All in all, if you want to play the notes quickly, use the keyboard. That's how poeople do it.

[CTStump]

So use the goddamn tracker. What's the point of visiting this forum is you still claim that copper tablet is better that a smartphone? You are looking for a replacement for something that is inferior and obsolete, and you're not willing to learn about new, better solutions.

All in all, if you want to play the notes quickly, use the keyboard. That's how poeople do it.

RENOISE USER's UNITE!!!!

It may be dated but is still relevent as a music making application. I guess the next thing to proclaim would be scoring programs should be thrown in the dust bin, after all that method of composing and publishing music has been around for a few hundred years.

Pssst....a tracker is a DAW, to some

[jancivil]

.....Sorry, this is a giant can of worms. If you want a really simple life with a tracker, use the friggen tracker and forget about the grandeur all this complexity affords one in comparison.

All those replies and that is your conclusion?

That is what the OP concluded a page or so ago.

EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME for failing to read quite enough bullshit.

I don't see the need for hostility in your answers to his needs or perceptions he was clear at least as far as he was concerned. It may be true that his grasp of the tech is prejudicial and and little narrow but he is trying to understand maybe not the way you might think.

Your being a little impatient with his replies and writing as if you shouldn't be participating
If you don't like it than stay away

*you're**then*

Not_my_problem, buddy. I don't see the need to interpret intent in the darkest possible way!

He keeps at creating problems that don't exist. At this point I wonder if the people saying 'great troll' aren't right.

IN FACT I provided quite a lot of help here.
You're being hostile to people you didn't like their posts. And argumentative off-topic.

Get up off me. More than one person stated strongly 'so use a tracker', he decided to use a tracker, so _I'm_ out of line.

[sellyoursoul]

To James Melody: It seems that a dedicated keyboard is working well for you for composition. I would stick to that for that aspect of music-making. And if you don't want to do that, then why not? What else would you like to have in that process?

Then you say that you would like to have some editing capabilities and a sampler for your own samples.

Are there any editing functions in your keyboard worth exploring? If not, then limited use of a daw might be of good use to you. What editing functions would you like to have? Can you explain as best as you can, how you would like to work?

Have you considered a hardware sampler? Most software samplers are geared toward playback of sample libraries, not so much for playing back your own samples. But there are some software samplers which you could use, as plugins in a daw.

[EnGee]

IMO he did choose
Renoise I think. I believe it is a great choice (I saw some videos about it). It has a sampler and the workflow suits James. Although, I predict he will use Reaper also As it also matches his criteria (fast to load, CPU efficient, can be extended with tons of options and the non-commercial license is not expensive, only $60).

[inkwarp]

By the way, a couple of people mentioned "piano roll". I wasn't really familiar with what this is, but I've now researched it, and as far as I can understand, with DAWs, the default view of each note is TINY, and too small to edit notes. Therefore, in order to edit the notes of a track you have to go into "piano roll" mode which (correct me if I'm wrong) is basically just a zoomed in view of that track. So "piano rolling" just means zooming in on a track so you can see all the notes clearly.

this is the funniest post i have read for a good long while.

In other words, with DAWs, you can only edit and view one track at a time in any detail, and simply editing notes requires you to go into a whole different viewing mode! I really can't see the benefit of this way of working. Surely it's far better to always see all the note data all the time, big and clear? Or is there something amazing about "piano rolls" that I am missing?

lol
there are several daws that allow you to edit 'multiple' tracks. i know for a fact that studio one does it, samplitude does it.. i would be interested to know exactly what expect as an alternative to the 'piano roll'.. i work a lot in fl and you can access all your sections from a list. you can set it so that you can see 'ghost notes' and even enter that section to edit those specific parts.
it sounds to me like you know absolutely nothing about sequencing in DAWs so i can understand people being hacked off at your tone.

[James Melody]

Thank you to everyone who replied, but I consider this thread to be over now and don't wish for any more advice.

I apologize for annoying people with my ignorance of DAWs. Perhaps what I have said may seem a little disrespectful to those who love DAWs, that was not intended. Though I also think some of the folks here ought to be a little more patient with newbies. I came here as an ignorant person looking to be educated, not mocked.

Nevertheless I am very glad I made this thread. Renoise is the program I have chosen, I love it, and a big thanks to lobanov and fedexnman for the suggestion, and especially to CTStump who was first to suggest it and has treated me with great respect.

It might seem that I came here wanting a tracker all along, but that's definitely not the case. I do love trackers, but they are not used in the music industry, so I was looking to "move into the 21st century" and use a modern DAW. When I came here I had no intention at all of using a tracker. As I've said, I like learning new things and expanding my horizons.

Even when Renoise was first suggested to me, I took a look at it and initially dismissed it, concluding that it was just too old-fashioned, clunky, and stuck in the past. I actually came back here and started writing a reply to CTStump, thanking him for the suggestion, but explaining that Renoise wasn't what I was looking for. However, when I started writing my explanation of why Renoise was not viable, it forced me to really assess the facts, and I ended up concluding that Renoise is actually a great DAW which can do everything I need, and my objection to it was mostly psychological, based on the perception that it was outdated. I also came to realise how vastly I prefer the tracker interface to the "piano roll" interface.

But, once again, I mean no disrespect to this community by saying that. I like the fact that everyone in an orchestra is passionate about a different instrument, and similarly, I like the fact that every music producer has their own preference in software. I know what mine is.