Native Instruments The Grandeur: Any opinions?

[Ingonator]

I decided to do a comparison of most Pianos i got available now using the same MIDI file. After seraching trough a bunch of MIDI files i got (and trying some in a plugin) i selected "Stairway To Heaven" (very old file alrady, was NOT recorded by myself!!) which seem to be nice as it has more silent and louder passages plus slower and faster playing and alsotrough multiple octaves.

So all audio demos were recorded using the same MIDI file and with almost all i used the Stillwell Audio Bombardier Compressor or Waves H-Comp and Lexicon MXR native Reverb (same preset for all, built-in Reverbs diaabled).
For most i also used an external EQ, either Waves Renaissance EQ or NI Solid EQ (from Komplete 10).

I sorted the demos in 3 categories: Sample based Piano, modeled Piano and Electro-Acoustic Piano (for the CP-80).

Here are the audio demos:

A) Sample based Pianos:

1.) NI The Grandeur:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... deur_1.mp3
- a second version with a softer Color setting:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... deur_2.mp3
- a more extreme example with a harder tone color, "tonal depth" set to fully resonant and increased level of the lower keys (set in the corresponding controls):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... deur_3.mp3

2.) NI Alicia's Keys:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... Keys_1.mp3
a second version without an EQ added:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... 20EQ_1.mp3

3.) NI The Maverick:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... rick_1.mp3

4.) NI The Giant ("XXL" mode enabled):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... iant_1.mp3

5.) NI The Gentleman:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... eman_1.mp3

6.) XLN Audio Addictive Keys Studio Grand (my own custom preset, only built-in effects used):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... rand_1.mp3
- a second example with a single mic position (close) and a slightly softer tone, also using softer velocity response:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... rand_2.mp3

7.) Addictive Keys Studio Grand + Alcia's Keys layered (both played trough the same Reverb):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... Keys_1.mp3

8.) Garritan Authorized Steinway Basic version (discontinued):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... asic_1.mp3

9.) Sound Magic Piano One (freeware, based on Yamaha C7):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... 0One_1.mp3


B) Modeled Pianos (+ hybrid):

1.) 4Front True Pianos, Atlantis module (modeling + samples hybrid):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ntis_1.mp3

2.) Arturia Piano V (my own custom preset):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... %20V_1.mp3

3.) Pianoteq 5 Standard demo version (slightly modified D4 model, hammer hardness reduced):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ited_1.mp3


C) Electro-Acoustic Pianos (no external EQ added):

1.) XLN Audio Addictive Keys Electric Grand (= Yamaha CP-80) with built-in Chorus FX and EQ:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... P-80_1.mp3



Some conclusions i got from comparing the demos (and also playing with the instruemnts):

- the 5 NI Pianos all seem to sound really different which is good IMO

- In The Grandeur and The Maverick (+ with the two Upright Pianos too) the sound could be further tweaked in the controls which also includes the Color, Lid up/down and built-in EQ settings. Of course also an external EQ could make a bigger difference (like used in most demos here).

- XLN Addictive Keys Studio Grand (= Steinway Model D) could be also tweaked quite much including overall tone, mic positions (3 of 6 positions could be mixed i one preset) and multiple built-in effects

- as a "general purpose" piano maybe The Grandeur and XLN Studio Grand are the best choices, also as the basic sound could be tweaked quite a lot

- i also like the sound that i got from Arturia Piano V (my own preset) while it is not as good as the NI pianos yet (maybe afte a little more tweaking Piano V will be better than i got it now)

- while in the past (before i got Komplete 10) i liked True Pianos i more and more have the feeling that the NI pianos are superior and taht i will rarely use True Pianos in teh future (except if the finally would release an improved v2.0)

- the sound of Pianoteq 5 is really not to my taste compared to the NI Pianos, no mattee how i tweak the models in the demo version and also after ading an EQ

- The Garritan Steinway Basic (discontinued) seemed to be nice when i bought it but is not so great compared to the 3 NI grand pianos. The Basic version is maybe also worse to the bigger version (AFAIK the bigger version was more advanced including multiple mic positions but also more expensive).

- The Sound Magic Piano One (just found this while doing this comparison...) for a free piano with only a few controls seems to sound quite good

- The CP-80 (XLN Electric Grand) has a very special sound that i really like but does not fit to all kinds of tracks. I also created a layer with one of the NI grand pianos that sounds quite nice too.

[Ingonator]

Yesterday i updated to Kontakt 5.6 via the new Native Access software and both Kontakt and the NI Pianos seem t olaod a bit faster now.

Besides that after i alraedy got the Addictive Keys Electric Grand for a great price at JRR Shop i finally also bought the Addictive Keys Studio Grand that is basd on a Steinway Model D (like many other libraries including also The Grandeur). For each of teh two i paid around 61 € (after conversion).

I added a demo of this to those posted above and also added a few other new ones there or updated the old ones. Still learning a bit how to properly use EQ and Compressor on those Pianos used in the audio demos.
Also adde 2 more examples of The Grandeur wit differnt color/hardness settings.


Addictive Keys Studio Grand sounds great and the Addictive Keys plugin (which also loads the CP-80) offers lots of tweaking for both the overall tone and teh mic positions. You could actually mix up to 3 of the 6 available mic positions and add an own EQ and Compresor (+ other effects like e.g. Chorus/Phase) to each mic position. The Delay and Reverb seem to be global but you could set an amount for each mic position. Overall it seems to include all effects you need including e.g. EQ, Compressor, Chorus, Phaser, Delay and Reverb. In my demo i added above i only used the built-in effects.

BTW the factory presets of Studio Grand overall did not seem to be such great IMO so it took me a while to do my own preset that sounded the way i wanted it to. FWIW i had also tried the demo of Studio Grand before i bought it (demo is limited to 4 octaves).

The Addictive Keys plugin seems to load quite fast and seems to be quite reliable so far. Both the plugin and presets load really fast and it has a small HD footprint (at least teh compressed file) compared to most other sample based Pianos (the Studio Grand compressed library file is around 1.2 GB).
This is maybe not a "super high end" piano (compared to the big and/or very expensive libraries) but has a great combination of sound, features, tweakability, peformance (HD + CPU), and also price (especially f you could get an additional discount).


Until i would decide to get another Piano library my favorites at the moment are those:
NI Alicia's Keys, NI The Grandeur, Addictive Keys Studio Grand, Addictive Keys Electric Grand and also Arturia Piano V seems to be quite usable (and i hope i could get an ever better result than iun my demo above after more tweaking).

[ruslan.st]

Thank you, Ingonator, for this piano comparison. It is very useful. For some ones even reverb cannot help much

[Ingonator]

Thank you, Ingonator, for this piano comparison. It is very useful.

Thanks for teh kind comment.

I also started a list of available Piano libraries/emulations (at the moment only grand pianos, maybe later also Upright pianos):
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1&t=470003

[neilslade]

I've tried nearly every piano out there- cheap and expensive. The Grandeur is my #1 for a lot of reasons- not to forget, it is SO AFFORDABLE- but it is truly better in my opinion than anything else at ANY price- tone wise, response, great user interface... better than: Hammersmith Pro, any of the 8dio pianos, Galaxy II, Production Grand Gold, Ivory II, Alicia Keys (horrible User Interface), any of the older NI pianos, Keyscape, etc. Galaxy II pianos are nice, and have the tone I like, but not as good as Grandeur- surprising, since they are both out of Galaxy studio sampling- alas they are older. The Grandeur velocity must be set a little softer-lower than default, then it is PERRRRRRRRFECT. No, I didn't try Vienna VSL at $700+ Forget it!

Neil

[ghettosynth]

Ingonator, could you provide the midi file by chance?

[Ingonator]

Ingonator, could you provide the midi file by chance?

Hi,

when i did the demos posted here it was at another computer and i did not do a backup of that one.
Anyway as mentioned above the MIDI file was not played by me but i found it in the web.

My bigger thread about pianos with more audio demos is foud here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1&t=470003
The MIDI files used there were not played by myself too.

Since i finally bought VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 last year (which i should have done earlier...) i lost interest in posting more comparisons and demos.
This together with NI The Grandeur and Alicia's Keys are my favorites since last year.

The last audio demos i posted in the other thread seemed to be in October 2016.

[Ghost Dog]

Ok, in order to not open a separate thread, I'll resurrect this one.

From what I was able to discern, The Grandeur sounds fine .... except for the notes between C3 and C4 (for reference, A3=440Hz here), which sound "plucky", compressed (for lack of better terms), or, as another poster from a different forum put it, like they're nylon strings.

Can anyone comment on this? Is this really what an actual grand piano is supposed to sound like in that octave (sure doesn't sound that way to me, but maybe I'm mistaken).

[AndreasT]

... the notes between C3 and C4 (for reference, A3=440Hz here), which sound "plucky" ...

I have the same feeling, except for me it’s only the A#3 that stands out as particularly plucky.
(Really noticeable when playing the Schindler’s List theme)

[pabloaldunate]

Does The Grandeur support Soft or Una Corda pedal?
The Gentleman doesn’t and is the one included in the 88mkII (Komplete Select 12) which is a huge miss.

[VladK]

While for most NI Pianos at the official website this info seems to be missing I just found a website where the original Pianos for the Komplete 10 Pianos are mentioned (please correct me if this is wrong):

- The Grandeur: Hamburg Steinway Model D Concert Grand
- The Maverick: Bechstein Model A Grand (1905)
- The Gentleman: Bechstein Model A Upright (1908)
- The Giant: Klavins Model 370i

- Alicia's Keys: Yamaha C3 Neo (custom made version for Alicia Keys so quite unique)

As already mentioend above Alicia's Keys was sampled by Scarbee while the other 4 (and also Una Corda) were sampled by Uli Baronowsky from Galaxy Isntruments.

Klavins also seemed to have built the Piano used for Una Corda together with pianist Nils Frahm (Kontakt instrument included in Komplete 11). They got their own website and at this page the original Piano for The Giant is shown:
http://klavins-pianos.com/b/index.htm
Here sithe Una Corda Piano: http://klavins-pianos.com/b/unacorda_en.htm



UPDATE:
After finally installing The Maverick that i somehow ignored so far (while included with Komplete 10...) i now also received the license for the second hand Alicia's Keys taht i bought yesterday at teh Marketpalce (for 37 € !!). Currently installing it so then i will have all 5 Pianos mentioend above.

The NI website is misleading to say the least:

1. The Maverick is indeed Bechstein Model A Grand: instead of usual 88 keys it has only 85 (it is short 3 treble keys) based on NI web site images, and looks identical to this 1905 Model A: https://www.sherwoodphoenix.co.uk/produ ... ter-45833/ . Model A Grand (1902+) was 5ft 11″ (182cm) long, and was the only Bechstein that had 85 keys. Very hard to name an 85-key baby grand a "concert grand" - the claim NI makes on the product page.

2. The Gentleman is not Bechstein Model A Upright (1908). Bechstein Model A Uprights never existed, all vintage Bechstein uprights had single digit model number (I - V until 1902, and 6 - 10 since 1902). This is Bechstein Model 7 Upright according to the photo on NI product page which exposes part of the logo. I hope at least the year (1908) is correct. As a side note, for modern Bechstein uprights A means Academy series, and is succeeded by 3 digits representing the piano height.

Also, Una Corda is Klavins Una Corda 88.

[glokraw]

They're all good enough to inspire some extra practicing

[jancivil]

btfw, the term Una Corda is another term for sostenuto pedal, typically CC66. It does not begin as a product name.
What it does is keep the notes which were held down at the time you step on the pedal sustaining while notes struck afterwards are not.

A whole lot of your final joy for the listener is down to the reverb/room ultimately. I used to really want to avoid spending that money on a piano, I don't frequently use one, don't play it particularly well, and used things like the August Foerster Grand way back from Kontakt 2. I had it EQ'd decently and exploited a reverb with it, it was remarkable. Not enough was sampled which tends to be true at this price point (holes in the dynamic response curve). Which is where you get into spending that money!

[VladK]

Una Corda and Sostenuto are different pedals. Una Corda pedal implements exactly the feature Una Corda piano is built around: sigle string per key. Pedal does this by moving the whole action assembly so the hammer hits only one or two strings instead of three, providing softer sound, while Una Corda piano has single string per key by design.

[Brother Greg]

Just my two bits: For the last couple of days, without being aware of this thread, I’ve been working on a piece while comparing Grandeur and Melda’s Monastery Grand. For my purposes, I found that Grandeur sounded best on soft settings, with a large hall reverb, in the distance. It was warm and soft. Monastery Grand was much more flexible in its settings and better if I wanted something very present—closer, punchier, but nice.