KVR Audio

FabienTDR · Post by **FabienTDR** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:49 am

I'm wondering if any software dev is interested in building a secret blacklist for shady customers. You know, those buying your products, downloading them and filling a paypal complain a week later. Either silly people tricking around or pro cracker seeking to access a non public edition of the software.

We already have a dozen ppl blacklisted from our shop and think that it would make sense for devs to share this list with other devs in order to prevent any trouble before it happens.

PM me in doubt!

phalke2001@yahoo.com · Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:49 am

Hello What is this about? Does it mean they steal the product? What happens when they complain to paypal?

FabienTDR · Post by **FabienTDR** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Paypal essentially forces the seller to refund and accept this behaviour as inevitable "noise". If this happens too often, I'd expect Paypal to lock the customers, but I have no details about it. It's too easy for him to ask friends or create new accounts. Paypal "customer protection" abuse.

I would expect that these same accounts are used across several plugin manufacturers with exactly the same "trick", hence the idea of a blacklist or at least, some sort of "be careful with this guy" type of list. Very much like credit fraud lists.

HoRNet · Post by **HoRNet** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:20 pm

I understand you fully with PayPal, it happened to me twice but i thought it was normal behaviour it never happened until recently... i didn't know it was a strategy...

Saverio

JCJR · Post by **JCJR** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:25 pm

Such a list might need to be fairly secret (perhaps private to a single company) because one could probably be sued for operating such. Perhaps even interpreted as criminal conspiracy.

The same kind of personalities who would end up on such a list would also be "frivolous lawsuit prone". Any way to get something for nothing, possibly assisted by honest "defenders of civil liberties".

If hackers managed to get on such a list and got pissd off about it, one might become focus of concerted cyber attack. In the past some security programmers have attracted ire of numerous hackers and suffered such concerted denial of service and other attacks that the fellas finally had to cry "uncle" and admit defeat in order to get on with their lives.

I don't know much about hackers but read that legit verions for cracks are often bought fraudulently, stolen credit cards or whatever. In those cases maybe the wrong persons (identity theft victims) would end up on the blacklist?

Ebay has its review stats lists for sellers and purchasers and apparently does it in lawsuit-proof form. Credit bureaus maintain giant involuntary databases without getting sued. Maybe some kind of "number of contested purchases" list could survive challenge, dunno.

The company I worked with for a couple decades nowadays has light copy protection but for a long time it was a few hundred bucks product with no copy protection and a no questions asked money back guarantee. 30 day money back as best I recall. A speculative analysis of piracy and fraud would probably have concluded that the company was losing scary amounts of revenue, but what was left from honest happy customers was enough to keep the company profitable. Money back guarantee is a strong impulse sales motivator and someone really interested in the software wouldn't request a refund if he likes what he gets.

I suppose with some kinds of solid copy protection that money back guarantee could be even more effective because you could turn off the guy's software after you refund the money. If it is an honest customer rather than a creep anyway.

I don't recall how the company handled folks who demanded the refund. Would guess they kept a list and perhaps would be not interested in having such fellas as repeat customers, buying each years new version then invoking the MBG every year. So perhaps somewhat self-limiting.

But honest folks might try the software and decide its not what they want. Seems better to return the money and have good will and possible word of mouth advertising to the guy's friends, rather than bad vibes of a guy who spent the money and got stuck with a disappointing product.

FabienTDR · Post by **FabienTDR** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:08 pm

@JCJR: Indeed. In our specific case, the problem is the super light weight copy protection. Basically, the only protection is the pay-wall (full binaries not accessible to the public).

With regard to a fraud list, I understand the issues it raises. False positives could seriously annoy legit customers. I don't like that at all. But I would be open to discuss the matter with other "relaxed copy protection" companies, for the sake of maintaining the good vibes on the long run.

It's not the most dramatic issue from the business point of view, most customers are totally fine. It's probably just about 5-10 people really abusing the system.

FabienTDR · Post by **FabienTDR** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:13 pm

HoRNet wrote:I understand you fully with PayPal, it happened to me twice but i thought it was normal behaviour it never happened until recently... i didn't know it was a strategy...

Saverio

Not sure how widespread these habits really are. I've also observed no more than a dozen cases. If it's really a strategy (I'm unsure, like you), it will most probably show the same pattern across various manufacturers. Hence the "list". Or maybe better: A warning system/mechanism for small devs.

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:21 pm

How about we put you guys on a secret blacklist for shady companies? We can share this list with other customers in order to prevent any trouble before it happens.

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:31 pm

Aloysius wrote:How about we put you guys on a secret blacklist for shady companies? We can share this list with other customers in order to prevent any trouble before it happens.

In which way TDR is shady?

pekbro · Post by **pekbro** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:41 pm

I wouldn't think any sophisticated shady types would be stupid enough to use
the same credentials more than once, after pulling a stunt like that.

Sounds like Paypal needs to offer more in the way of fraud protection to the seller.

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:43 pm

Well, there is always the potential for a legitimate customer, with a legitimate complaint to find themselves secretly blacklisted. There's a Judge but no Jury.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:13 pm

I feel for manufacturers who get scammed. I have a friend with an online business, and this sort of thing happens to him all too often.

That said, I've had my credit card compromised multiple times. If someone used it to buy a plugin, would you blacklist me? If I, as an honest consumer and victim of credit card fraud, found myself on some secret industry blacklist, I'd be calling my attorney immediately.

VariKusBrainZ · Post by **VariKusBrainZ** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:17 pm

You could issue a new serial each you update the software so those that get a refund don't get a new serial, though I guess this still wouldn't eliminate the problem.

Or blacklist certain serial numbers within the software itself so it stays in demo mode

cron · Post by **cron** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:39 pm

While I understand there are shady characters out there, a secret blacklist seems like a very slippery slope. If it goes ahead, I'd urge you and everyone else involved to have a publicly readable policy about what the blacklist is, exactly what kind of behaviour will land you on it, how that data will be shared, and who it will be shared with.

I mean, I have one or two plugs with showstopping bugs for which I'd be perfectly justified in demanding a refund, and we all know a small handful of temperamental developers who wouldn't think twice about a revenge-add to said blacklist.

llze · Post by **llze** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:52 pm

There is pretty strict data protection law in our country (Germany), so such a list could cause quite some trouble. St least for German based companies.

Secret blacklist for shady customers