Soft synth sound in hardware
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 33 posts since 3 Mar, 2015
In assembling a collection of soft synths I looked to replicate my hardware setup. I've not quite been able to do that but I have accumulated a lot more besides. I am now looking at things from a slightly different perspective - I'd like to replicate what I have in software in hardware. I'm covered for analog emulation (by real analog), FM, PD and Additive, and VA (up to a point). But I'm wondering about how far I can cover (or wish to cover) oscillator unison and wavetable.
I like to use Helix, Spire and Serum for example. What are some cheap and cheerful ways to cover that in hardware?
I like to use Helix, Spire and Serum for example. What are some cheap and cheerful ways to cover that in hardware?
- KVRAF
- 7364 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
Maybe less cheap than you were hoping for, but there are some excellent choices in Eurorack. The about-to-be-released SynthTech E352 Cloud Terrarium, for instance, can load user wavetables from SD cards, has associated free software that lets you create or import wavetables (and it takes a different approach than Serum so the two complement each other nicely), has a pretty amazing "cloud" mode (aka unison -- thicker than Serum IMHO) as well as 2-op FM with the wavetables, a wavefolding mode and a phase offset/modulation mode. Serum is pretty much my favorite VST, and E352 really impresses me.plugin'd out wrote:I'm wondering about how far I can cover (or wish to cover) oscillator unison and wavetable.
I like to use Helix, Spire and Serum for example. What are some cheap and cheerful ways to cover that in hardware?
It's monophonic, like most Eurorack gear, but the cloud mode can be spread far enough to create chords, it's just tricky to sequence that way. They also have the E370 on the way, which has four oscillators and each can go into chord mode, but that's closer to the $1K mark.
There are several other Eurorack wavetable VCOs, each with their own quirks. Erica Black Wavetable is another good one; Piston Honda is a noisy and dirty one that can also act as a waveshaper simultaneously; Kermit is a more limited dual LFO/VCO with some cross modulation and a nice "dusty" sound; Braids has a few wavetable modes among other digital models.
Of course with that approach you'll need envelopes, LFOs, VCAs etc. and it's a very deep rabbit hole. But I don't at all regret going that way myself.
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- KVRAF
- 4421 posts since 13 Jul, 2004 from Earth
I am not familiar with Serum but i think Novation Ultranova,mininova would do the job.
It is a wavetable synth and a VA Synth so it could cover helix and Spire too
I got myself a Ultranova yesterday for a good price used but haven't had time to test it yet.
It is a wavetable synth and a VA Synth so it could cover helix and Spire too
I got myself a Ultranova yesterday for a good price used but haven't had time to test it yet.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 33 posts since 3 Mar, 2015
Thanks for the replies.
If I had another life I'd love to go down the Eurorack route, but as it is I intend to get a couple of desktop semi-modulars and hope that I can leave it at that (which is what got me thinking about how to revive the hardware I already have).
Its a shame the Ultranova is only available as a keyboard - space is an issue and I'll probably limit myself to a desktop/rack module. The Blofeld seems to do a multi oscillator thing as well as wavetable, but I haven't heard any demos yet that really show this off. From what I've heard the Ultranova seems a better fit for what I'm after soundwise. But I wonder if the Blofeld can get into similar territory - the demos I've heard seem to want to show off how much it can sound like an analog synth (which it does very well, but that's not really what I'm looking for).
If I had another life I'd love to go down the Eurorack route, but as it is I intend to get a couple of desktop semi-modulars and hope that I can leave it at that (which is what got me thinking about how to revive the hardware I already have).
Its a shame the Ultranova is only available as a keyboard - space is an issue and I'll probably limit myself to a desktop/rack module. The Blofeld seems to do a multi oscillator thing as well as wavetable, but I haven't heard any demos yet that really show this off. From what I've heard the Ultranova seems a better fit for what I'm after soundwise. But I wonder if the Blofeld can get into similar territory - the demos I've heard seem to want to show off how much it can sound like an analog synth (which it does very well, but that's not really what I'm looking for).
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- KVRAF
- 2367 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
The Mininova is pretty small. If you aren't going to play the keys you won't care about that. It comes in at marginally larger than a Desktop TI at a fraction of the price. A Snow is obviously a lot smaller, but still a lot more expensive than a Mininova or Blofeldplugin'd out wrote:Its a shame the Ultranova is only available as a keyboard - space is an issue and I'll probably limit myself to a desktop/rack module.
If you care, the Ultranova has a pretty decent keybed with aftertouch. I use mine as a master keyboard on my desk. The 37 keys are a bit limiting though, so if you need more than that, it's probably a bad option for gigging.
The disadvantage of all of the above apart from the Desktop TI is that they only have a very limited amount of knobs on the front panel; I don't know if knobs are important.
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transmetropolitan transmetropolitan https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=342194
- KVRist
- 282 posts since 24 Nov, 2014
I personally much prefer Blofeld to Ultranova for wavetable stuff. The PPG and comb filters are really great.
Check out videos by Jexus and Zaphod Betamax.
Check out videos by Jexus and Zaphod Betamax.
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
- Banned
- 12880 posts since 5 Jun, 2012
Why do you want to replicate your software synths hardware in the first place?
I think the more complex things get (wavetable etc.), the bigger the advantages of software.
For the price of one mediocre hardware synth, you can built a powerful music computer and do things you can hardly do in hardware.
I think the more complex things get (wavetable etc.), the bigger the advantages of software.
For the price of one mediocre hardware synth, you can built a powerful music computer and do things you can hardly do in hardware.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 33 posts since 3 Mar, 2015
I'm sure I will carry on using a computer to make music but I'd also like to explore making electronic music without one. If and when I get a hardware sequencer I'll see how well the computer/DAW functions as another MIDI sound module, but right now I like the idea of ditching it altogether.fluffy_little_something wrote:Why do you want to replicate your software synths hardware in the first place?
I think the more complex things get (wavetable etc.), the bigger the advantages of software.
- KVRAF
- 2946 posts since 31 Jan, 2003 from Ghent, Belgium
Expect a steep difficulty curve! Yamaha DX/SY, Casio CZ, Kawai K5 series aren't easy to program.plugin'd out wrote:FM, PD and Additive
- KVRAF
- 1645 posts since 12 Dec, 2012 from Switzerland
I don't understand either.fluffy_little_something wrote:Why do you want to replicate your software synths hardware in the first place?
I think the more complex things get (wavetable etc.), the bigger the advantages of software.
For the price of one mediocre hardware synth, you can built a powerful music computer and do things you can hardly do in hardware.
Why not just use the benefits of each world, complementing each other. Instead of replicating.
stardustmedia - high end analog music services - murat
- KVRAF
- 15007 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Snow's can be had pretty cheap, but you'll need to rely on the software editor. Worked fine for me.chk071 wrote:A Virus TI maybe? Not cheap, but, seems like a good option for the synths you mentioned. Or Waldorf Blofeld for wavetable (and VA) stuff.
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- KVRist
- 126 posts since 5 Dec, 2009
Getting perfect midi and midi clock from computer out to gear can really open up potential for fusing hardware and software. USAMO is excellent for this.
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do_androids_dream do_androids_dream https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=164034
- KVRAF
- 2908 posts since 26 Oct, 2007 from Kent, UK
A cheap and cheerful way - in hardware - to cover the same ground as a very complex softsynth.. erm.. You would need a few grand to get somewhere close..plugin'd out wrote:I like to use Helix, Spire and Serum for example. What are some cheap and cheerful ways to cover that in hardware?
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
You mentioned Helix, Spire and Serum... Helix, Spire and Serum are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT beasts. Sure, they can sound similar, in a certain kind of sounds, but we can say that of about any other synth.
Regarding Helix and Serum, you will not be able to get any hardware replacement currently. The closer to Serum will be Blofeld - but still distant. And, to get the full out of Blofeld, you'll need the computer still. For Spire, Virus will be closer. For Helix, none of them.
The same can be said about FM - the best FM synth you can get currently in hardware is Yamaha FS1R. Be prepared to spend almost 1000 for that, and again, to take full advantage of it (be able to program it) you will need to do that with software... in a computer.
PD - The best hardware will be the old Casio CZ1 (or a VZ-1/VZ-10M, but that's another kind of PD). Again, to take full advantage, a computer will be quite handy.
Additive. Kawai K5000. Rare, and again be prepared to spend a considerable amount of money for them. And... you guessed. You will need a proper software editor to get the best out if it.
So, in the end, if what you are looking for is the sound, a ROMPler would be a far more flexible and economic solution. It can reproduce the sounds of basically ANY of those, without being ANY of those. On the higher end, workstations like Yamaha Montage or Korg Kronos will even give you a lot of synthesis power, sequencing, whatever - all inside the same keyboard (Kronos can perform almost any of synthesis technicques you mentioned - the only one limited is additive, but it also adds sampling and physical modeling to the picture. And it has Karma). Also, editing is much better in these than on any of the others mentioned.
Both the Montage and Kronos are expensive, but if you are spending money on a Yamaha FS1R, a Kawai K5000, a Casio CZ1, a Waldorf Blofeld and a Virus TI Snow, all that summed up you will end paying more or less the same.
Regarding Helix and Serum, you will not be able to get any hardware replacement currently. The closer to Serum will be Blofeld - but still distant. And, to get the full out of Blofeld, you'll need the computer still. For Spire, Virus will be closer. For Helix, none of them.
The same can be said about FM - the best FM synth you can get currently in hardware is Yamaha FS1R. Be prepared to spend almost 1000 for that, and again, to take full advantage of it (be able to program it) you will need to do that with software... in a computer.
PD - The best hardware will be the old Casio CZ1 (or a VZ-1/VZ-10M, but that's another kind of PD). Again, to take full advantage, a computer will be quite handy.
Additive. Kawai K5000. Rare, and again be prepared to spend a considerable amount of money for them. And... you guessed. You will need a proper software editor to get the best out if it.
So, in the end, if what you are looking for is the sound, a ROMPler would be a far more flexible and economic solution. It can reproduce the sounds of basically ANY of those, without being ANY of those. On the higher end, workstations like Yamaha Montage or Korg Kronos will even give you a lot of synthesis power, sequencing, whatever - all inside the same keyboard (Kronos can perform almost any of synthesis technicques you mentioned - the only one limited is additive, but it also adds sampling and physical modeling to the picture. And it has Karma). Also, editing is much better in these than on any of the others mentioned.
Both the Montage and Kronos are expensive, but if you are spending money on a Yamaha FS1R, a Kawai K5000, a Casio CZ1, a Waldorf Blofeld and a Virus TI Snow, all that summed up you will end paying more or less the same.
Fernando (FMR)