i7 7700k vs. Ryzen 1700x for my new PC

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nIGhT-SoN wrote:
pekbro wrote:I think at a minimum when building a new system you should expect 5 yrs
service life out of it. As soon as you get the board its likely already out dated,
with the frequency of revisions and whatnot. After 5 years and you want to build
a new one with the latest chip, why would anyone want to put it into a 5 yr
old main board. That makes little sense IMHO.

My 2 cents.
The thing is you can upgrade after 5years to a Ryzen 2, let's say. You buy it second hand and you extend your usage by another 2-3 years without having to buy a whole new platform (cpu, mobo, ram). Or you can upgrade as soon as Ryzen 2 gets out, you sell yours add some money to that and you get another up to date platform. If you are not looking into upgrading, Apple is the best. To me it feels like bad investment not to be able to upgrade.

And motherboard doesn't actually influences your performance if you don't cheap out. But now even $100 boards will have at least 10years of life at normal parameters. I know my old LGA775 board run and still runs well for like 10 years. Also how much did motherboards change in the last 10 years? You get USB3.1 now, UEFI bios and that's kinda all that's really new. Ram modules changes like 5-7 years and the performance increase from DDR3 to DD4 is not that big, especially for music production. So my question, why would you change a board that can run the latest CPU?

You make some good points that I never thought about.
Any idea if the latency issue on ryzen is linked to the chip design?
So if I went ryzen now I can upgrade to the likes of ryzen 2 on the current ryzen boards ? And possible ryzen 2 won't have the latency issues ?
Ryzen 1700x still offers a huge leap for myself lol
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... m765vs3915

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scottishraver wrote:
nIGhT-SoN wrote:
pekbro wrote:I think at a minimum when building a new system you should expect 5 yrs
service life out of it. As soon as you get the board its likely already out dated,
with the frequency of revisions and whatnot. After 5 years and you want to build
a new one with the latest chip, why would anyone want to put it into a 5 yr
old main board. That makes little sense IMHO.

My 2 cents.
The thing is you can upgrade after 5years to a Ryzen 2, let's say. You buy it second hand and you extend your usage by another 2-3 years without having to buy a whole new platform (cpu, mobo, ram). Or you can upgrade as soon as Ryzen 2 gets out, you sell yours add some money to that and you get another up to date platform. If you are not looking into upgrading, Apple is the best. To me it feels like bad investment not to be able to upgrade.

And motherboard doesn't actually influences your performance if you don't cheap out. But now even $100 boards will have at least 10years of life at normal parameters. I know my old LGA775 board run and still runs well for like 10 years. Also how much did motherboards change in the last 10 years? You get USB3.1 now, UEFI bios and that's kinda all that's really new. Ram modules changes like 5-7 years and the performance increase from DDR3 to DD4 is not that big, especially for music production. So my question, why would you change a board that can run the latest CPU?

You make some good points that I never thought about.
Any idea if the latency issue on ryzen is linked to the chip design?
So if I went ryzen now I can upgrade to the likes of ryzen 2 on the current ryzen boards ? And possible ryzen 2 won't have the latency issues ?
Ryzen 1700x still offers a huge leap for myself lol
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... m765vs3915
Not to throw cold water onto this, but motherboard designs change quite often. Yes, if you're not interested in the "latest" technologies or connection types (Thunderbolt, anyone?), you can stay with a mobo design for a few years, and save quite a bit of money by just upgrading your processor. For what it's worth, this is exactly what I do, and what I tell my clients to do: hang on to what you have, and only upgrade the parts you need to speed up your system as you can afford to. But in the DAW world, things are a bit different, because DAW enthusiasts usually live closer to the bleeding edge of computer technology. As such, we usually want 12-/16-/20-core processors, and Thunderbolt (which only comes with the latest mobos, since it has to be incorporated in the BIOS).

And from what I've read from DAW system builders (and a few others), the Ryzen latency issue is from the design of the processor/RAM, but they expect it to be addressed. Also, since this is the first version of the Ryzen processor, the next version (whenever it comes) may not necessarily be as large or use the same motherboard.

If Ryzen makes a huge difference for you now, then it might be worth the change. Your RAM, video card, and most other things won't have to change. Your motherboard and cooling system would, however. But if you get a mid-level Ryzen chip now and a top-tier one in 2 years, I'd say you've gotten your money out of it. By then, we'll all be on DDR6 RAM and other stuff we haven't even heard about yet, so you'd need a new mobo by then, anyway--even if it's just an entry-level one, so that you can start this process all over again (as we all do!).

I'm all for Ryzen, "Threadripper" and anything else AMD has up its sleeve to keep Intel in line. :wink: And I hope more KVRers who know their hardware chime in on this soon. Otherwise, I'd suggest you check out similar threads on Gearslutz, where they were just talking about something like this last week.

Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.

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Scotty wrote:
Some stuff



I appreciate your opinion, but I'm going with the very large group of computer musicians that have indeed noticed a problem. Not saying they suck, not saying you shouldn't get one, but the OP said "which one" ... I'm going with the one that doesn't have any ASIO issues at all.

Isn't that fair enough?

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Yes, fair enough. Could you link to the large group of computer musicians that have noticed a problem as stated. That might get past the emotion and get us into some fact based territory.


incubus wrote:
Scotty wrote:
Some stuff



I appreciate your opinion, but I'm going with the very large group of computer musicians that have indeed noticed a problem. Not saying they suck, not saying you shouldn't get one, but the OP said "which one" ... I'm going with the one that doesn't have any ASIO issues at all.

Isn't that fair enough?
Last edited by Scotty on Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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@scottishraver
I can't make such promises, all i can tell you is that Ryzen+ will be like Ryzen but with a little better speed (probably +400Mhz) and Ryzen 2 will be more than that, I guess will include increase in IPC and even better speed. But it's just a guess.

Check 1700 too, it's cheaper, it includes a cooler and can be overlooked almost like 1700x, depends on luck too, but I've seen people getting to 3.6/3.7 on stock cooler and 3.9 with aftermarket one. Some even hit 4.0 but that's where the luck is involved.

Btw, Ryzen is a really cold CPU, you won't need AIO with it (water cooling), you can cool it with air which makes your pc more silent.


@planetearth

The thing is AMD said AM4 platform will be supported until 2020 and Ryzen+ and Ryzen 2 will use this platform. You'll just need a bios update and you'll be able to use them. AMD is well known for supporting it's platforms for very long time, check AM3 and before. Also about memory controller, is in the CPU so if there is a problem with it can be fixed with the microcode or by new CPU designs.

Btw, AMD is about to release Raven Ridge, which is an APU and AGESA 1.0.0.7 is on the way. AGESA is AMD microcode for motherboards, will be given to motherboards manufacturer, they will release a bios update when everything is tested and ok and you'll be able to use these new processors.

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pekbro wrote:I think at a minimum when building a new system you should expect 5 yrs
service life out of it. As soon as you get the board its likely already out dated,
with the frequency of revisions and whatnot. After 5 years and you want to build
a new one with the latest chip, why would anyone want to put it into a 5 yr
old main board. That makes little sense IMHO..
I've been seeing this argument a lot since Ryzen came out and while valid to some extent, I think it misses the point.

Given how little advancement we've seen in the CPU development in this decade, it's not about putting a new CPU onto an old board, it's about getting a new board for an old, but still quite capable CPU in case of a motherboard failure. Which is infinitely more likely than a CPU failure.

For example, I have a midrange Z77 motherboard that's been running an i5 2500k at 4.5GHz since the day one and it still serves me quite well. But if the motherboard died on me, it would be impossible to find a new s1155 board. So, unless I bought a used board with a questionable lifespan, I would be left with a useless chip that's anything but useless. And if I had an i7 2600k or 2700k, that would sour Intel's planned obsolescence business strategy even more for me.

Since Z370/Coffee Lake made Z270/Kaby Lake platform almost obsolete while not guaranteeing its own longevity at the same time, that is why, if I were able to afford an upgrade right now, I'd be more inclined to go AMD route. Not to mention price/performance ratio which is definitely on Ryzen's side.

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I built a new DAW a few months back to replace my struggling MSI laptop which had done great service for something like 6 or even 7 years. Went for a 7700 desktop. Added a good mobo, loads of RAM, decent graphics and a huge cooler. Result is an almost dead-silent DAW that's been absolutely flawless. Old projects that had my laptop heating up with all fans screaming now barely push the CPU to 10 or 12%. It's a true joy!

I know almost nothing about Ryzen, so maybe they're better in every way. I just wanted to support the OP's previous statement that the 7700 is a proven performer. It works, it's reasonably priced, and you'll have a great system that should be good for years.

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xeon.

There is a reason why xeon is the preferred choice on the highest end workstations.
To put things into perspective, just for fun…we loaded over 5,000 tracks with effects into various DAWs and watched them implode. The software literally didn’t know what to do any more and just started to glitch out, with the Kami running at about 50% usage.
http://musiccomputing.com/kami-xl-keybo ... n-windows/
Synapse Audio Dune 3 I'm in love

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Scotty wrote:Could you link to the large group of computer musicians that have noticed a problem as stated. T
No. If you think I'm just blowing smoke, that's your problem. It's clearly stated on this very forum. I thought you were going to let this go but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. So, I have an app for that :hihi:

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Richard deHove wrote:I built a new DAW a few months back to replace my struggling MSI laptop which had done great service for something like 6 or even 7 years. Went for a 7700 desktop. Added a good mobo, loads of RAM, decent graphics and a huge cooler. Result is an almost dead-silent DAW that's been absolutely flawless. Old projects that had my laptop heating up with all fans screaming now barely push the CPU to 10 or 12%. It's a true joy!
What mobo do you have? I've since learned that it's actually real-time performance that matters the most when it comes to DAWs, so I'm also aiming to build something with super-low DPC latency.

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I am not trying to pick a fight. I've been following this topic closely and I have poored through dozens of gear slutz posts and I don't see a large group here (KVR) or there (gearsltuz) reporting issues. Some have indicated that the latency issue is a non issue as they are getting high track counts with loaded effects at low latencies with Ryzen and like me want more power at mixdown. I am probably looking at the wrong threads. But if you have the patience... I'll read any threads to which you link but I am happy to do my own reading.. I just thought you had something else to add which I hadn't already read that was based on experience instead of opinion.

Too bad there wasn't an app for that. It would help with just about everything.








incubus wrote:
Scotty wrote:Could you link to the large group of computer musicians that have noticed a problem as stated. T
No. If you think I'm just blowing smoke, that's your problem. It's clearly stated on this very forum. I thought you were going to let this go but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. So, I have an app for that :hihi:
Last edited by Scotty on Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I've managed to make music for like 11 years using 12-14ms all the time, from the start of the song to the end. That latency is too much when recording audio and you need monitoring through the pc, but if you use direct monitoring is no issue and for keyboard playing I don't feel like 12-14ms it's too much. But now with Studio One 3.5.x you can use low latency and high latency at the same time which I think it's the future for all daws. This is how things should be done. Why would you need low latency on all tracks? You just need on the one you are recording.

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BetaAltairVII wrote:
Richard deHove wrote:I built a new DAW a few months back to replace my struggling MSI laptop which had done great service for something like 6 or even 7 years. Went for a 7700 desktop. Added a good mobo, loads of RAM, decent graphics and a huge cooler. Result is an almost dead-silent DAW that's been absolutely flawless. Old projects that had my laptop heating up with all fans screaming now barely push the CPU to 10 or 12%. It's a true joy!
What mobo do you have? I've since learned that it's actually real-time performance that matters the most when it comes to DAWs, so I'm also aiming to build something with super-low DPC latency.
MSI Z270 GAMING PRO CARBON LGA 1151 ATX
Cooler Master MasterAir Maker 8 CPU Cooler

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nIGhT-SoN wrote:Btw, AMD is about to release Raven Ridge, which is an APU and AGESA 1.0.0.7 is on the way. AGESA is AMD microcode for motherboards, will be given to motherboards manufacturer, they will release a bios update when everything is tested and ok and you'll be able to use these new processors.
:?
https://www.bit-tech.net/news/tech/cpus ... s-elmor/1/

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7700 platform is already abandoned, AMD promises support for Ryzen for at least 4 years forward. Personally I bought it with future upgrade in mind.
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)

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