Upgrade to Live 9 (10) Suite for £191 OR get Bitwig for £265 (on sale)?

[samsam]

If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.

And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.

Play a thought game with me. I'm gonna give you 2 version numbers of a particular software, you tell me which one you'd guess is more stable.

9.0.3 or 9.7.5?

So which version would you rather be stuck on.....?

I clearly do not know what I am talking about.

I genuinely thought that basic bug fixes for already added features were free between major upgrades.

For Live, yes. For BW it doesn't seem so. My post was to point out that I'd rather be stuck on the last version of Live I paid for, with BW you could end up with a broken version, it seems, based on my understanding of their model from this thread. I also disagree with pdxindy response to my post about stability, at least in my experience of software. Can't be arsed arguing

[dellboy]

For Live, yes. For BW it doesn't seem so. My post was to point out that I'd rather be stuck on the last version of Live I paid for, with BW you could end up with a broken version, it seems, based on my understanding of their model from this thread. I also disagree with pdxindy response to my post about stability, at least in my experience of software. Can't be arsed arguing

Bitwig need to clarify if free bug fixes are available between major upgrade versions.

[pekbro]

To the best of my knowledge, they have never actually responded to the question of maintaining operability of deprecated versions. Although, it was definitely asked about. They have alluded that you can continue to use them indefinitely should you decide to forgo a renewal or (whatever you want to call it, sub etc). I believe they have been maintaining version 1 to some degree so far.

Its conceivable that it could be done "practically" indefinitely, assuming they have designed sufficient modularity into their code base. Still, it would be no trivial task, and would also provide a continuous drain on resources that would, for all intents and purposes, bring in little or no revenue.

I am pretty skeptical about it myself.

[SLiC]

Have Ableton and Cubase been upgrading one version back (Live 8, Cubase 8 ) with bug fixes and support or do you have to upgrade for that? How many versions back do they support?

When I was with Cubase I was having to pay for .5 upgrades at $150 to get bug fixes....

Bitwig have been maintaining version 1 (one version back) for people who didn't upgrade.

Actions speak louder than words.

There is no doubt that Bitwig are a new small dynamic company full of of-the-wall ideas (some good, some bad!) pretty much as Ableton were when I first got on board with them at version 4. Ableton are now one of the big corporate players - some of the stuff that comes with that is good, some is bad.

Personally I like supporting the small new developers, I like the thrill of the ride (I think with Live you pretty much have the destination) but every one can pick for themselves (I still have both!) and really should not be distracted by this ridiculous argument about if Bitwig is subscription or not.

Bitwig is in my opinion very cheap for what you get, and far better value than Live Standard- you have to pay DOUBLE the cost of Bigwig to get Suite, to some (people who program MAX) it will be worth double.

I think what people forget is Bitwig and Live are BOTH great DAWS and we are lucky to have them; don't take it for granted (RIP SONAR)

[pdxindy]

If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.

And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.

Really ?

I thought bug fixes were free in between major update versions of live ?

More than once there has been outstanding bugs when the next major upgrade comes... in that case you may have to buy the upgrade to get those bugs fixed... even moreso if it is a design flaw and not strictly a bug. It has happened multiple times over the years that certain bugs have only been fixed in the next paid upgrade, particularly if that bug required some recoding to fix.

Also, it is common for a feature introduced in one paid version to have some significant flaw or limitation and it is only improved in the next paid upgrade. Live introduced groups in Live 8 now over 8 years ago. It is 2 paid upgrades later in the upcoming v10 that you can finally have groups inside groups. Bitwig introduced Groups in v1.2 2 years ago and no need for a paid upgrade because you could nest groups right from the get go.

They each have their benefits and this stuff is all shades of grey. A few people are talking as if there is some fundamental difference between how the 2 companies are doing things and that how Bitwig is doing it is bad for users. In practice there really is just not that much difference. They are both good companies doing good work. The important focus for deciding which to get (for the person looking at that decision) is does the application fit your needs. They have different strengths and features. For me, the lack of MPE support in Live means it is just out of the running now that v10 does not have it. Also, Bitwig is fresher, more innovative and forward thinking which I appreciate. Plus the GUI is just better.

[SLiC]

May of the people that moved to Bitwig moved from Live for one reason or another.

We are all a fickle bunch, I have no hesitation in changing DAWS, I also moved from Cubase to S1 3, but am now having a long hard look at Cubase again as I like what they did with 9.5, for Live however there was nothing in 10 that tempted me back from Bitwig.

[ThomasHelzle]

For me personally it's a bit funny how discussions on KVR tend to focus so much on money.
In my main line of work I use the 3D Software SideFX Houdini. The smallest version that has some limitations and can only be used by Indie artists is 200$ a year to use. The "Core" version which lacks the SFX and simulation part but is otherwise unlimited is 2000 or 3000$ depending on the license with half of that as yearly maintenance. The big "FX" version is 4500 or 7000$, again depending on the kind of license and half of that per year if you want to stay current.
Many other of my tools have similar licenses where staying current is about half the asking price per year - in some cases you lose the ability to use the tool if you don't pay, in others you don't, but don't get updatest either.

And while I understand that many here are hobbyists and don't make money with music, I see a lot of people buying very expensive plugins that are as much or more than the BWS update. For me, my DAW is the main building block of everything I do in music and sound, so I am willing to invest accordingly.
159 Euro for the update is 13.25 Euro per month.
For that you get the freshest and most innovative DAW on the market, which may or may not be something you are interested in personally - no DAW fit's everybody.

But since the Op asked for some specific reasons to go Bitwig (in no specific order):

- One of the major points is the very intuitive and flexible modulation system in BWS 2.x. Modulate every device parameter with as many modulators as you want. They are running at audio rate so you get extremely tight results and can for instance build your own compressors, drive individual EQ-values, add sidechaining to plugins that don't have it and even do FM synthesis with the new AudioRate modulator. Each device can have as many modulators as needed, modulators can modulate modulators and they are saved in device presets for instant recall. This alone makes Bitwig very special.

- If the op is into analog hardware, the integration of CV input and output is very helpful. Again, since everything is running at audio rate, CV modulation with the modulation system is very fast and tight.

- The plugin delay compensation in BWS is very good.

- Bitwig can be synced with Midi Clock or Ableton Link and it can send Midi Clock, SongPositionPointer and MTC per Midi output with latency compensation.

- Bitwig has a built in bit bridging that allows you to run 32 and 64 Bit plugins at the same time, Live will only be 64 Bit in the future.

- And you can give Bitwig as many plugin locations to scan as you want...

- Bitwig has built in plugin sandboxing, so if a plugin crashes, only that one plugin crashes, everything else keeps running and the GUI of the device will show a button to restart the plugin in question.

- Bitwig supports VST3 plugins.

- Plugins and libraries are scanned in the background, so the GUI starts instantly and you can start working right away.

- Start screen with access to recent projects, templates, settings, content, help etc.

- Use MPE controllers and MPE enabled plugins.

- Support for polyphonic aftertouch.

- Edit per-note automation like pitch, pan, timbre, velocity and pressure in the event/note editor.

- Use as many effect-tracks/sends/returns as you want.

- Put any kind of device or plugin in any order into a device chain. Have as many instruments, effects, midi generators or manglers or whatnot either in a linear or parallel/layered manner. So no more one-midi-VST-per-track, just put them where they belong to do what you want.

- Hybrid tracks that can hold audio and/or Midi at the same time in different regions.

- Bounce in place or bounce to a new track of any time selection.

- Edit the audio inside clips, cut and reorder the parts, have audio from different sources/samples inside of the same clip (especially helpful in the clip launcher).

- Unlimited track groups inside of groups inside of ....

- Local effect tracks ("Return Tracks" in Live) inside of groups that can send to other effect tracks on higher levels for cascaded effects.

- Groups have their own local "scenes" that you can start individually from the global scenes.

- Audio- and Note receivers that can receive from any point on any track/device chain/plugin in your project (routings that would create feedback are prevented though).

- Directly send midi from any track directly to a VST plugin somewhere else in the project with a user defined midi channel (for multitimbral plugins like Kontakt for instance).

- Create Remote Control Pages for each device that can be easily mapped to controllers.

- While Bitwig is running, install a VST and it shows up immediately in it's Browser, ready to use.

- While Bitwig is running on Windows, plug (and unplug) an USB-Midi-Controller and have it recognised right away.

- Bitwig runs on Linux, which may or may not be of interest for the op, but gives more flexibility if in the future Apple or MS may go even more bonkers.

- The popup-browser for plugins, presets, sounds etc. is the fastest way to access content I've ever seen in any DAW. There also is an optional side browser as well.

- Save presets for devices, clips and tracks (including devices) by simply dragging them into the side browser.

- Very good factory devices with some cool concepts, like being able to drop effects into the "room" of the reverb or into the feedback loop of the delays..

- Use the clip-launcher next to the arranger (my favourite way of working) - optional of course.

- Have the track headers in arranger on the left side where they belong...

- Decide per track if it should run clips from the launcher or from the arranger, switch live between the two and even have clip actions do it automatically.

- Very powerful automation editor that allows you to not only have one layer of automation on a parameter, but for instance after recording automation by hand, put additive and multiplicative curves on top to further finetune the result without destroying the recording.

- Adjust smooth automation curves intuitively and create S-curves.

- Have a full screen editor for Midi and/or Audio for detail work.

- Layered editing of Audio and Midi, IMO better implemented than in Live, but that may be a matter of taste. Can be used either clip-based or timeline based.

- Show the mixer below the arrangement on demand.

- Java/JavaScript Controller API to write your own controller scripts - may or may not be interesting for the op.

- If you have a touch screen, it may be interesting to give the touch implementation and interface a try that is optimised for fast and efficient control of the DAW with fingers or pen. It even includes a MPE-like touch keyboard/pad in every layout (optional).

- Define your own custom shortcuts, both with the computer keyboard and/or your controller.

- Pin and unpin menu items as buttons to the user interface if you use them a lot.

- Integrated package manager to download and update Bitwig Studio content in the background.

- Get up to three installations and manage those in your user area on the Bitwig homepage yourself.

- Get a temporary license on a machine in an emergency (for instance if you have to borough a laptop in a hurry after yours had a beer too many).

Sorry if I missed half of it, this was just off the top of my head...

Cheers,

Tom

[dellboy]

For me personally it's a bit funny how discussions on KVR tend to focus so much on money.

Pretty easy to say by someone who is obviously flush with the stuff.

Many people on KVR have limited funds because they chose to get married or whatever. A house, shoes,food, car, etc have to be priorities. Somewhere down the line they may get some "me" time in the mancave. And then,with limited resources,they carefully decide whether to spend hard earned money on the Bitwig upgrade model,or the Live upgrade model.

One person even said that they can easily spend $160 on a night out with the lads !

Likely lives at home with parents who let him stay there for free.

[SLiC]

If money is tight then Reaper is your best option, period. What expensive software to buy or upgrade to is the very definition of a first world problem: if you are not making a living with music you don't need it, its just a luxury/bit of fun. Anyone with talent can make great music with totally free software...personally when I was younger it was just an acoustic guitar and fostec X26 four track tape recorder- my most productive times! I guess I am also one of those people who I 'flush' and $160 is a dinner out with wife and kids, money rich but time poor....it always seems to work that way, when I had a lot of time on my hands I couldn't afford the toys1

[ThomasHelzle]

For me personally it's a bit funny how discussions on KVR tend to focus so much on money.

Pretty easy to say by someone who is obviously flush with the stuff.

Many people on KVR have limited funds because they chose to get married or whatever. A house, shoes,food, car, etc have to be priorities. Somewhere down the line they may get some "me" time in the mancave. And then,with limited resources,they carefully decide whether to spend hard earned money on the Bitwig upgrade model,or the Live upgrade model.

One person even said that they can easily spend $160 on a night out with the lads !

Likely lives at home with parents who let him stay there for free.

I'm not "flush with the stuff", I actually live a rather simple life, I just set my priorities where it does the most good.
13.25 Euro a month for the update doesn't hit me as especially massive and updating to live is 191pound for the op, so not exactly cheap either.
There may also be cheaper second hand sales of BWS 2 in the marketplace.

Sorry if my post sounded arrogant, I just see the overall tendency at KVR to be so focused on the price of things (and GAS) that other considerations sometimes seem to get lost.
Like: is the product any good, do I really need it, does it help me in my work and how inspiring is it at that.

Sorry if I came across the wrong way.

Cheers,

Tom

[SLiC]

One other point to consider - Live hasn't updated for 4-5 years as I think they have been moving to the hardware world and develop ng Push 1 then Push 2 soon after. There is absolutely nothing to say that Live won't update to 11 next year then 12 the year after...keeping 'current' with any software (assuming you want/need to) can be very expensive and is normally an unknown, some could argue that at least with Bitwig you can budget!

Anyway, back to comparing features- Ableton Live cant make your coffee...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPdX82YrJA

[dellboy]

If money is tight then Reaper is your best option, period. What expensive software to buy or upgrade to is the very definition of a first world problem: if you are not making a living with music you don't need it, its just a luxury/bit of fun. Anyone with talent can make great music with totally free software...personally when I was younger it was just an acoustic guitar and fostec X26 four track tape recorder- my most productive times! I guess I am also one of those people who I 'flush' and $160 is a dinner out with wife and kids, money rich but time poor....it always seems to work that way, when I had a lot of time on my hands I couldn't afford the toys1

You have explained it succinctly.

Bitwig is expensive software for professional use only.

Reaper is for hobbyists.

[dellboy]

For me personally it's a bit funny how discussions on KVR tend to focus so much on money.

Pretty easy to say by someone who is obviously flush with the stuff.

Many people on KVR have limited funds because they chose to get married or whatever. A house, shoes,food, car, etc have to be priorities. Somewhere down the line they may get some "me" time in the mancave. And then,with limited resources,they carefully decide whether to spend hard earned money on the Bitwig upgrade model,or the Live upgrade model.

One person even said that they can easily spend $160 on a night out with the lads !

Likely lives at home with parents who let him stay there for free.

I'm not "flush with the stuff", I actually live a rather simple life, I just set my priorities where it does the most good.
13.25 Euro a month for the update doesn't hit me as especially massive and updating to live is 191pound for the op, so not exactly cheap either.
There may also be cheaper second hand sales of BWS 2 in the marketplace.

Sorry if my post sounded arrogant, I just see the overall tendency at KVR to be so focused on the price of things (and GAS) that other considerations sometimes seem to get lost.
Like: is the product any good, do I really need it, does it help me in my work and how inspiring is it at that.

Sorry if I came across the wrong way.

Cheers,

Tom

No offence at all.

[whyterabbyt]

Anyway, back to comparing features- Ableton Live cant make your coffee...

Of course it can; its got MAX/MSP in it, it could fly a space shuttle while compositing animated footage of a coffee maker into a live camera stream of the pilot seat.

[SLiC]

If money is tight then Reaper is your best option, period. What expensive software to buy or upgrade to is the very definition of a first world problem: if you are not making a living with music you don't need it, its just a luxury/bit of fun. Anyone with talent can make great music with totally free software...personally when I was younger it was just an acoustic guitar and fostec X26 four track tape recorder- my most productive times! I guess I am also one of those people who I 'flush' and $160 is a dinner out with wife and kids, money rich but time poor....it always seems to work that way, when I had a lot of time on my hands I couldn't afford the toys1

You have explained it succinctly.

Bitwig is expensive software for professional use only.

Reaper is for hobbyists.

When things like VCV rack exist for FREE or Air Hybrid 3 can be bought for $1 no one has any excuse for spending money they don't have

https://www.kvraudio.com/news/vcv-rack- ... inux-39310
https://www.pluginboutique.com/products/1545-Hybrid-3