Dissonance in Manhattan Transfer's A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square

[MackTuesday]

This chord troubles me. It seems unnecessarily sour:

-byyye

There's a G# note that stands out as the worst offender, but I think it's because the previous chord anticipates a resolution to a G note, which is also in the chord along with the G#. I think the chord is some inversion of B-C#-G-G#.

It's hard to know what the root is even supposed to be. Following the precedent in the previous stanza, where the key is B and it sounds like a plagal cadence, the root should be F# because the key is now C#, but it's hard to imagine how B-C#-G-G# could be a derivative of F# major.

Anyway, there isn't much cadence to speak of because it goes to a uniform C#.

So what possible purpose could such dissonance serve considering it doesn't even lead anywhere?

Or is it actually pretty and I don't hear it?

[Aloysius]

It sounds s*it. I think it was human error.

[MackTuesday]

It sounds s*it. I think it was human error.

I kind of doubt it. The arrangement won a Grammy and the chord shows up in every other performance of the song by Manhattan Transfer that I know of. It has to be deliberate.

[Aloysius]

Well then, the people giving out the Grannies don't know what they're talking about.

[jancivil]

sounds like dominant 7 b9#9 on first 'glance' to me.
looked it up: it's Ab D G B

http://oisteinr.com/Files/Kammerkoret/N ... Square.pdf

so its function is complex: it's an inversion of Bb7 13 b9 (if not its flat five substitute E7#9) no root!
Key of Db but the passage finally cadences to a harmony which has Eb in the bass part, like a slash chord Db/Eb. Eb 7 9 11 no 3rd. The penultimate cadence following this begins with Db^7, the next 'chord' pure voice-leading with a D and A sandwiched between Db bass and top voice doing Ab G...


Sure d00d, you know what you're talking about but the arrangers for this group don't.
Aaaand there's the sheet music.

Fact is you lack the ear or the knowledge basis for such a pungent type harmony. actually not unusual.
not sour, not shit. or even s*it.
SOOOO KVR.

[jancivil]

So what possible purpose could such dissonance serve considering it doesn't even lead anywhere?

Or is it actually pretty and I don't hear it?

The next harmony is built on Eb and this was a Bb or Fb, dominant or flat-five substitute dominant of that. Can't call it one or t'other as the root was omitted* either way. And I'm sure, yeah. So to explain it in Db, it's V7 of ii. ii winding up being ii11. * Guitar voicings!

I really dig it the most, daddio. I grew up in this music.


You're bothered by Ab-G. I heard it as #9. None of this is terrifically novel, however for a popular group it's kind of rich, very much modern jazz practice.

[skipscada]

So what possible purpose could such dissonance serve considering it doesn't even lead anywhere?

Because it's fun to see how far you can stretch it without stretching it too far?

[Harry_HH]

So what possible purpose could such dissonance serve considering it doesn't even lead anywhere?

Because it's fun to see how far you can stretch it without stretching it too far?

Where it leads, the function of some harmony (or note, or rhythm, or structure) can sometimes be just contrasting, and serve the entity. Here, for example, the last few chords would not sound that striking beautiful without the earlier tension.

[nordickvr]

Sounds like :
I don't know.
edit : Never mind

[Aloysius]

Sounds like X Y Z in the key of Stupid.

[someone called simon]

It's pretty but you don't hear it!

It sounds like maybe you're more comfortable thinking in chords than numerals, as am I, so here's one way to think about it.

In Db, it would be common to have a chord sequence going from Fm7 to Ebm7. It would not uncommon to put a transition between those. Ab7 would be common, less common maybe but typic of a sloppy guitar player just sliding the barre chord down one fret at a time would be Em7. (probably should call that Fbm7?) The chord they are singing has elements of both, and could be thought of as a Bb 13 #9 as JC says, though it has no root note. There's only 4 singers so what are you gonna do? pick the notes that function best I guess.

2 examples of this kind of chord in a more pop context come to mind, both times they include the root note though. Stevie wonder "you are the sunshine of my life" : the chord between "...of my life" and "that's why I'll..."
https://youtu.be/3wZ_b_uUAdQ?t=16s

and the commodores 'Lady" in the" na na na na na" section, 3rd chord.
https://youtu.be/phNLASyPsUU?t=2m20s

[MackTuesday]

...In Db, it would be common to have a chord sequence going from Fm7 to Ebm7. It would not be uncommon to put a transition between those.
...
2 examples of this kind of chord in a more pop context come to mind...

I think I hear it now! If I understand correctly, the transition chord is long and the following chord isn't sung explicitly -- a uniform note is sung instead. I think I hear roughly what that might have been, though.

[angelonyc]

Regarding dissonance:

Part of this depends on 'conditioning your musical palette'.. Like when you eat an artichoke, and scrape the the first artichoke leaf. It tastes weird, not really pleasant, but pretty different from anything else you've tasted.. But by the 3rd leaf, it taste great, and when you've processed all the leaves, you wish the artichoke was larger.

I go to a site, 'youngcomposers.com'. It's mostly classical uploads, but has different forums. One of the very accomplished composers, sometimes upload 'atonal' pieces. I have to listen once or twice to get accustomed to the music. First listen, I really don't like it. But by the 3rd listen, I like it, because it is so different from other types of music.

I've found, I can add dissonant notes, if I soften their velocity, duration, even brightness and they rapidly move to a consonant note. In fact they can make the music quite rich.. It does become a matter of taste.

I didn't like Manhattan Transfer, when they first came out.. I liked triad chords, and 6ths, 7ths, and yes loved Maj 7 chords.. It was years later, that I longed for more variety, conflict and resolution, in music.
Now after a LOT of years of playing, listening music.. I still like classic rock (pretty simple), but I enjoy and write music with more complex chords, and have use/like transitioning dissonant notes.

[MadBrain]

Rick Beato talks about this chord in this video at 0m39s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfltPoJuf88#t=0m39s

[aMUSEd]

It's very powerful and creates a beautiful ambiguity towards the end where they are saying goodbye, moves them up in my estimation.