The VSTi That I Would Pay $1,000 For

[wagtunes]

Can anyone tell which orchestra's string section a sample library emulates? Especially if it is played by different people? When you have 10 orchestras playing the same piece under the same conductor, one could hardly tell which is which.
Also, a string section or orchestra is more like a choir, where many voices are fused into one and thus no longer recognizable.

Any human voice is unique, though. With solo voices/instruments you can easily tell the difference. One can't emulate a violin virtuoso in a DAW, not even with an expensive sample library.
Or take the bass. You can have all the samples in the world, you just can't faithfully emulate someone like Marcus Miller, who kind of becomes one with his bass and plays it the way a singer sings.

First of all, you're still justifying people who can't play an instrument being able to make the sounds of that instrument. If I can't play violin, I shouldn't be able to hit a key on a keyboard and make a sound that is as close to a real violin sound as the libraries today are capable of producing. That level of accuracy, even if not 100% that of the real thing, is all I'm asking for in a vocal emulator. Right now, we are nowhere near that level of accuracy.

Second of all, human voices are not all that unique. There are hundreds of singers out there who sound almost the same. You yourself said you can't tell one country singer from another unless you listen really, really hard. And yes, a lot of country singers have a very "generic" sound. That's kind of my point.

Also, singing is not all that hard. It's certainly a lot easier than playing a violin. How many people in this world can sing compared to how many people can play the violin.

But the bottom line is this. If a person can't play a violin, using your argument, they should not be able to create a sound so close to a real violin sound as we are capable of doing. It is a, using your words, a slap in the face to those who spent years learning their craft.

[wagtunes]

Again, Hink asked me to debate the argument and not the person.

The argument is that there is something sacred about the human voice that is not inherent in playing any particular instrument.

I argue that somebody who has spent 30 years learning to play violin feels just as strongly about his craft and the flood of violin sample libraries as one might feel about his voice and a flood of vocal emulators.

There is no difference. That is my argument. And if the argument is that a violinist won't feel threatened by a violin sample library then I argue that a vocalist won't feel threatened by a vocal emulator.

I'm open to being shown proof that I'm wrong. Not opinion, but proof.

Otherwise, I argue that vocals and violin are no different to the person creating each.

[fluffy_little_something]

The only reason country music sounds all the same to me is because of the entire genre. I surely could tell the singers' voices apart if I bothered to listen to that music for a while.

I don't share your analogy. A singer is always in the center of a song. The voice defines the music. You can replace the drummer or guitar player or bass player, but not the singer. That has happened with many bands that have been around for a long time. But take away Sade Adu from Sade and replace her with another singer, the band would be over and done with.

Singing well is much more complex than you think, the tremolo for instance. You can't emulate that with a mod wheel and lfo
Talented singers can do it without nearly the same amount of practice that a violin player needs, that's true and unfair at first glance. Then again, the violin is an artificial instrument, a machine, whereas humans have played the human voice for tens of thousands of years.

[fluffy_little_something]

Again, Hink asked me to debate the argument and not the person.

The argument is that there is something sacred about the human voice that is not inherent in playing any particular instrument.

I argue that somebody who has spent 30 years learning to play violin feels just as strongly about his craft and the flood of violin sample libraries as one might feel about his voice and a flood of vocal emulators.

There is no difference. That is my argument. And if the argument is that a violinist won't feel threatened by a violin sample library then I argue that a vocalist won't feel threatened by a vocal emulator.

I'm open to being shown proof that I'm wrong. Not opinion, but proof.

Otherwise, I argue that vocals and violin are no different to the person creating each.

Nothing sacred, but special, indeed.
There is a difference and people have pointed it out to you repeatedly. It is not math, so we can't prove it to you. Either you get it or you don't...

[Elektronisch]

You have to admit this thread is a novel way to get people to a soundcloud page

Believe me, it wasn't my intention. I just had an idea for software that would help me a lot given I can't sing and Vocaloid sounds like, well, like Vocaloid.

I never expected things to go south the way they did.

Tbh you put your soundcloud alot, alot too much in fact, you are the only one who puts so much of your soundcloud stuff just to prove some point. And even tho you dont expect for things to go south, they eventualy do and its everyones fault but yours

Look, I am trying to remain civil here. Hink came in and basically told me to cool it. But it seems you just can't let it go. And he wonders why I hate this place so much.

Now can we please just have a rational conversation from this point on, unless you just want to spend the rest of the thread dumping on me.

It's your choice. But I'm not going to get sucked into the flame wars anymore here. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the software I suggested, fine. If not, we have nothing left to say to each other.

Agreed?

Im not dumping on you at all if you didnt notice, i pointed out something that people do notice and are not very fond off.

[wagtunes]

Again, Hink asked me to debate the argument and not the person.

The argument is that there is something sacred about the human voice that is not inherent in playing any particular instrument.

I argue that somebody who has spent 30 years learning to play violin feels just as strongly about his craft and the flood of violin sample libraries as one might feel about his voice and a flood of vocal emulators.

There is no difference. That is my argument. And if the argument is that a violinist won't feel threatened by a violin sample library then I argue that a vocalist won't feel threatened by a vocal emulator.

I'm open to being shown proof that I'm wrong. Not opinion, but proof.

Otherwise, I argue that vocals and violin are no different to the person creating each.

Nothing sacred, but special, indeed.
There is a difference and people have pointed it out to you repeatedly. It is not math, so we can't prove it to you. Either you get it or you don't...

Well, I don't agree. So I guess we leave it at that since there is nothing else for us to discuss.

[wagtunes]

You have to admit this thread is a novel way to get people to a soundcloud page

Believe me, it wasn't my intention. I just had an idea for software that would help me a lot given I can't sing and Vocaloid sounds like, well, like Vocaloid.

I never expected things to go south the way they did.

Tbh you put your soundcloud alot, alot too much in fact, you are the only one who puts so much of your soundcloud stuff just to prove some point. And even tho you dont expect for things to go south, they eventualy do and its everyones fault but yours

Look, I am trying to remain civil here. Hink came in and basically told me to cool it. But it seems you just can't let it go. And he wonders why I hate this place so much.

Now can we please just have a rational conversation from this point on, unless you just want to spend the rest of the thread dumping on me.

It's your choice. But I'm not going to get sucked into the flame wars anymore here. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the software I suggested, fine. If not, we have nothing left to say to each other.

Agreed?

Im not dumping on you at all if you didnt notice, i pointed out something that people do notice and are not very fond off.

Fine. Can we agree at least that we don't have anything left to discuss since we apparently don't share the same views on this subject?

[Cinebient]

I think a human voice might be much more complex than a violin.
You said sample libraries are about a 9 of 10 compared to reality and Vocaloid about 5 of 10.
I would more say Vocaloid is more like at best 2 of 10 then.
While there are of course tons of articulations and difference in violins etc. itself i think that a human voice is even so much more complex in variety of timbre. There is a reason why physical modeling is good with a lot acoustic instruments but nowhere close for a human voice.
Maybe someone should start to emulate one of the best "organic" tool.....a real Lyrebird.
But i must say i would be interested in such a software myself but i´m sure it won´t happen in the next 10 years or so. In 20 years people might laughing and using such tools as one dollar smartphone app
I mean there is still place for innovations. Maybe someone will invent things which let us hear even more frequencies than humans could today with the best fresh ears and whatever.
I´m a real fan of technology but sometimes we just wait for something which we won´t see in our lifetime and get frustraited

[melomood]

Such a plugin would be a slap in the face of all talented singers.
Why not simply accept that you are not a good singer, just like most people do?
When your body is slow and weak, there is no point in wanting some sort of bionic body enhancement just so you can become a football player. People would consider it unfair...
(This thread should be moved to the Everything Else forum.)

Then I suggest that everybody who cannot play the violin accept that they are not violinists and not buy violin sample libraries and not use violins in their work. Same for trumpets, flutes or any other instrument that they are incapable of playing.

It works both ways my friend.

I can't play the violin so I enlisted an electronic violinist from the other side of the damn country to play on my last track for free simply because he liked my music

Sounds like a brag,but really
just sayin

[wagtunes]

I think a human voice might be much more complex than a violin.
You said sample libraries are about a 9 of 10 compared to reality and Vocaloid about 5 of 10.
I would more say Vocaloid is more like at best 2 of 10 then.
While there are of course tons of articulations and difference in violins etc. itself i think that a human voice is even so much more complex in variety of timbre. There is a reason why physical modeling is good with a lot acoustic instruments but nowhere close for a human voice.
Maybe someone should start to emulate one of the best "organic" tool.....a real Lyrebird.
But i must say i would be interested in such a software myself but i´m sure it won´t happen in the next 10 years or so. In 20 years people might laughing and using such tools as one dollar smartphone app
I mean there is still place for innovations. Maybe someone will invent things which let us hear even more frequencies than humans could today with the best fresh ears and whatever.
I´m a real fan of technology but sometimes we just wait for something which we won´t see in our lifetime and get frustraited

2 of 10? Okay, sure. I'll even go with that. So again, give me something that's a 9 of 10. Heck, I'll take an 8 of 10 at this point. As long as the common listener (not the experts here) will listen to it and think it's a real human being.

Again, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime if at all. It might very well be so complex that it's simply not possible.

Again, thread title. VST that I WOULD pay $1,000 for.

And right now, maybe even more.

[Aloysius]

If 1000 people would like to give me $1000 I'll try to come up with a prototype. No guarantee on delivery date but I'll do my best, honest!

[Elektronisch]

I still dont understand the purpose of this thread Wags. Ok you want this kind of instrument, so whats the point of the discussion? can you describe what is your purpose of creating the thread.

[wagtunes]

I still dont understand the purpose of this thread Wags. Ok you want this kind of instrument, so whats the point of the discussion? can you describe what is your purpose of creating the thread.

Okay, that's actually a fair question. As I didn't actually state the purpose (didn't think that was necessary) I'll do that now. There were several in fact.

1. To obviously make it known that this is a VSTi that I would pay a lot of money for.

2. To see if others felt the same way about the technology and what THEY would pay for something like this. Some have said $99 is their price point.

3. To see what suggestions others might have as far as the software itself as far as design. What they'd like to see it contain.

4. Finally, yes, to see what people thought of the idea in general. I honestly didn't expect the backlash that I got. Obviously, some people feel very strongly about the human voice and feel this is something that is morally wrong to replicate. While I don't agree, I respect their opinion. Ultimately, what any of us think is irrelevant.

Why?

Because if some company out there thinks there is a market here (obviously the Vocaloid makers do) there is a very good chance that they will try to take advantage of it. And, as technology improves, there is a very good chance that MAYBE by the time we get to Vocaloid 10 (we are now at 4) we'll actually see the quality I'm looking for and at the price of the current Vocaloid, which is about $100.

If that day should come, regardless of how any of us feels, it will be out of our hands. And I guarantee you, in spite of all the moral outrage shown here, there are going to be people who will jump all over software like this like a tick on a dog. It's inevitable.

Having said that, I will simply sit back and wait and hope that my dream comes true and that someday I can put out a vocal that doesn't make people cringe when they hear it.

[wagtunes]

Now that we've come this far and I've conceded that celebrity sound alikes are a bad idea, this is the software I'd like to see now.

It would be a synth like layout with about 100 or so parameters, each one controlling a different aspect of the human voice.

The synth would come with no presets. It would come with an init patch. The init patch would be an acceptable human voice but if users didn't go beyond that patch, each user would sound the same. So it would be a requirement that each user learned to program the synth.

In that programming, you'd have the ability to create any type of voice that the human voice is capable of producing provided you had the programming skill to do it.

In order to do this, you'd need to develop your skills. You might even need to read the manual and take a course in voice production for the synth. It would not be an easy piece of software to program.

This will discourage all but the truly dedicated. This will, in turn, cut down on the number of people actually using this instead of a real singer. That and a hefty price tag will make this software even more of a niche item.

Ultimately, the voices generated from this software would be as unique as the voices we currently have in real life, unless of course everybody just used the init preset.

I think this is something all those who are against this software could live with.

Ultimately, even if not, it doesn't matter. The company who manufactures this is probably going to make it very easy to use. It will probably come with hundreds of presets. You'll have country singers, soul singers, pop singers, metal singers and so on. It will be one of the most amazing pieces of software ever made and, yes, for some people will be their worst nightmare. They will hate it and wish it was never made. You may even see whole forums and discussion groups created to protest the software.

Obviously, all the above is speculation. For all I know, this software simply won't ever happen because it will turn out that replicating the human voice in that kind of detail is impossible.

I don't know and I don't think anybody here knows for sure. All I do know for certain is that the above modified version of the software is still something I would pay $1,000 or more for and yes, I would spend the time to learn how to program it so that I can get whatever kind of voice I want out of it.

I guess time will tell.

[Cinebient]

If 1000 people would like to give me $1000 I'll try to come up with a prototype. No guarantee on delivery date but I'll do my best, honest!

But only if you add some extras like altering the voice by years of smoking, drinking and/or having a cold