From an Idea to a complete song

[Haslev]

Find a pen and paper, write down a form, and then just stick to it. I feel that this way you have to use your creativity within some confinments. You always have to limit the amount of choices you have.
I often just take the form of a song I like.

[captain lysergicacid]

The words 'new to production' and 'house' and so forth signal to me that you decided to create songs from the vantage point of music production software and have not had the more normative experience - regarding songs and what happens - of being in a band or even being a singer who accompanies herself with a piano or guitar and learning songs in order to present them to people.

Correct me if I'm wrong... but in the process of learning whole songs, and has been advised already, taking a record apart and getting as many of its parts down as yez can, one has this sort of holistic thing going for them rather than this abstracted and read about or the look for youtube tutorials situation.

I mean that you'll get some knowledge going in the experience rather than looking at information and 'what do I do', do the thing and stand on the shoulders of what's come before you as musicians must do.

Haha, that's funny!

Because i play the guitar for already (oh gosh ...) 12 years!

I have played in a Band for 6 years! And had several other musical projects...

So, I have experience in how to arrange "Songs" in a Pop / Rock (or Stoner Rock back in my days) way...

If i wanted to make a pop / rock song:

Intro
(Chorus)
Verse
Bridge
Chorus
Verse 2
Bridge 2 (maybe with guitar solo)
Chorus 2
Solo
Chorus
Outro

(Or something like that...)

Where I am actually struggeling is,
that i am new to music production, DAW's, and electronic music...

The part mentioned aboved would make an Pop / Rock Song, but it wouldn't work out that good for an lets say, ambient piece, or downbeat electronic piece...

This is why I started this thread...

[captain lysergicacid]

Find a pen and paper, write down a form, and then just stick to it. I feel that this way you have to use your creativity within some confinments. You always have to limit the amount of choices you have.
I often just take the form of a song I like.

Thanks a lot for this advice!

Actually easy, and I have done this before...

But yes, probably it is the best method to overcome arrangement blockades!

I will stick to this technique in future, when i am struggeling with my arrangements

[thecontrolcentre]

The part mentioned aboved would make an Pop / Rock Song, but it wouldn't work out that good for an lets say, ambient piece, or downbeat electronic piece...

I don't see why not ...

[jancivil]

in the process of learning whole songs, and has been advised already, taking a record apart and getting as many of its parts down as yez can, one has this sort of holistic thing going for them rather than this abstracted and read about or the look for youtube tutorials situation.

I mean that you'll get some knowledge going in the experience rather than looking at information and 'what do I do', do the thing and stand on the shoulders of what's come before you as musicians must do.

Haha, that's funny!

Because i play the guitar for already (oh gosh ...) 12 years!

If i wanted to make a pop / rock song:

[snip: "I know how to"]

Where I am actually struggeling is,
that i am new to music production, DAW's, and electronic music...

The part mentioned aboved would make an Pop / Rock Song, but it wouldn't work out that good for an lets say, ambient piece, or downbeat electronic piece...

This is why I started this thread...

Well why didn't you articulate THAT in the first place.

I am pretty new to music production, and i have following problem:

I have composed a couple of nice ideas, like a nice melody with a bass line / drums, or a nice chorus..

But then i always struggle to make a whole song out of this idea.

What are your techniques to make a whole song from an idea?

[vurt]

you could have replied a little more respectfully when folk are trying to help.
you didn't mention your previous experience so how are people supposed to know? a simple "oh, sorry, i didn't mention id done.... is the process different?"

but no, its the same, arrange the parts you have, add transitions and variations. done.
repeat till you have more confidence in said genres, im gonna imagine when you first started playing guitar you weren't as good as the records you listened to? why expect this to be different? practice!

[jancivil]

Pretty much every person that can read assumed you don't have the form to "complete" the song from a germinal "Idea" (capitalization yours). But fine, that will cut down on me wasting energy on reading some bullshit in future (let alone that of thinking about a reply for a while before posting). So thanks for that.

[Boone777]

Find a pen and paper, write down a form, and then just stick to it. I feel that this way you have to use your creativity within some confinments. You always have to limit the amount of choices you have.
I often just take the form of a song I like.

Thanks a lot for this advice!

Actually easy, and I have done this before...

But yes, probably it is the best method to overcome arrangement blockades!

I will stick to this technique in future, when i am struggeling with my arrangements

For me that technique did'nt work out so well but to each his own. What works better for me is to let the song/melody/chords guide me to the next part. I am more into prog songs so it could be the reason why a stiff format does'nt work well with me.

I make a quick sketch from start to end even if it's really crappy just to retain the feel of where I thought the song should go. When I come back to it for a second pass rework my riffs/progressions to something I like. It could be just a marker 'clean guitar' or 'build up'. If I get an idea for a bassline I'll drop that quickly and fill the rest around when I'll come back to it. Or replace with a better idea. That prevents to get stucked with just a chorus or an unfinished song wich I used to do a lot. That trick came from this book wich I highly recommend:
https://makingmusic.ableton.com/

[Aro]

Maybe try singing your way into a new section.

Some songs I find want to go somewhere. Some want to stay in the same place. Maybe try listening to where the song wants to go. Or not go.

[VELLTONE MUSIC]

write someting...then listen it...then write what comes to your mind after listening...then listen again...then write again whatever pop up ...then listen again

[wagtunes]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone

OP: I don't know how to write a song

Hi KVR'lers!

But then i always struggle to make a whole song out of this idea.

OP: Oh wait, I do know how to write a song

If i wanted to make a pop / rock song:

Intro
(Chorus)
Verse
Bridge
Chorus
Verse 2
Bridge 2 (maybe with guitar solo)
Chorus 2
Solo
Chorus
Outro

(Or something like that...)

So which is it? Do you or don't you know how to write a song?

The genre doesn't matter. The parts don't matter. Song structure is song structure. Get to know the "standard" structure of the genre you want to write for and write that structure.

You obviously demonstrated by your 2nd quote that you understand song structure. So I'm not exactly sure what your problem is. In fact, I have no freaking clue what your problem is.

Some clarification will help a lot in getting the help that you need.

[ghettosynth]

Hi KVR'lers!

I am pretty new to music production, and i have following problem:

I have composed a couple of nice ideas, like a nice melody with a bass line / drums, or a nice chorus..

But then i always struggle to make a whole song out of this idea.


What are your techniques to make a whole song from an idea?
Do you have more links like this:
https://www.reasonexperts.com/basic-ele ... music.html

Where the basic schemata and rules of certain genres are discussed?

Depends, quite a bit, on the genre. For some genres a good way to proceed is to just copy and paste your section five to seven times, label each section, then start modifying each section to fit the label. Now listen. Where you get bored, change that section.

You mentioned coming from guitar and songwriting. I think that the best way to grok the expectations of a dance music genre is to listen to records both in context, i.e., in a mix, and standalone. You might be surprised at how little "song" is required in a typical track. Again, this is very dependent on genre and it would probably help for you to be more specific about the kinds of genres that you're interested in.

[ghettosynth]

I make a quick sketch from start to end even if it's really crappy just to retain the feel of where I thought the song should go. When I come back to it for a second pass rework my riffs/progressions to something I like. It could be just a marker 'clean guitar' or 'build up'. If I get an idea for a bassline I'll drop that quickly and fill the rest around when I'll come back to it. Or replace with a better idea. That prevents to get stucked with just a chorus or an unfinished song wich I used to do a lot. That trick came from this book wich I highly recommend:
https://makingmusic.ableton.com/

Yep. I think that this works well for a lot of dance styles.

[jancivil]

You might be surprised at how little "song" is required

That's mean!

Thanks for that.

[ghettosynth]

You might be surprised at how little "song" is required

That's mean!

Thanks for that.

I'm not sure where you get mean from. It's a reflection of the role of the DJ in dance music production and, if you are new to that, you might not recognize that large portions of the typical dance track are there to serve the mixing process. So, it's a mistake to think of a six minute track as you would, e.g., a six minute pop song.

OP linked to house music and this is very true in that genre. So, if that's what he's interested in then it's important to understand how tracks feel both in the mix and out of a mix to get a feel for how much "song" is required and how the track should be fleshed out around the main idea(s).