Well, we'll need an objective basis in which to gauge the whys and wherefores of the trends, as method to make distinctions if nowt else; the feeling of intervals, the obvious strong movement of P4 or P5 vs stepwise or a 3rds movement, tension and release or relief devices that are known*...
There aren't *necessarily* musical reasons for the trends; we have to recognize that once 'popular' is used for the heading, we'll find that people are typically flat copying what has been successful commercially.
For example, one trend in "urban" pop was to have an an overabundance of "Re" when its usual appearance in a tune will be a *suspension/resolve. I quite doubt that most of those who produce this know what it is technically (or they'd tend to do something else) but know how to mimic well enough.
(*: That landing incessantly on *Re (in place of Do) produces a lot of unrelieved (if not exactly harsh) tension and I think recognizing what it is will mean a difference. Not that that's innately desirable there, because commerce is the real point.)
Is there any way to know what chords usually falls after a specific chord?
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
We'll comply with that chart for what musical reasons exactly?
Apparently here's an indication of a proscription for moving to/from a too-similar (or known diatonic 'substitution') eg., V to iii, IV to ii...
Is this supposed to be absolute, though?
NB: all musical decisions are by definition contextual and the genuinely creative act means there is a reason for a decision. V to iii isn't very different, but then I to vi isn't either.
This is not actually of any real use value as is. And it should seem obvious that a reason to assert a prescription or proscription should follow that assertion.
Are we to suppose people here are looking for, again, a push button or paint-by-numbers solution as though it's universally applicable in lieu of thought? In the flow of some music, V to iii might be a type of delayed or deceptive etc harmonic cadence; iii only differing from I by one tone. We need examine musical decisions in context. No context, and here assertion with no argument in support of it = meaning is nil.
Apparently here's an indication of a proscription for moving to/from a too-similar (or known diatonic 'substitution') eg., V to iii, IV to ii...
Is this supposed to be absolute, though?
NB: all musical decisions are by definition contextual and the genuinely creative act means there is a reason for a decision. V to iii isn't very different, but then I to vi isn't either.
This is not actually of any real use value as is. And it should seem obvious that a reason to assert a prescription or proscription should follow that assertion.
Are we to suppose people here are looking for, again, a push button or paint-by-numbers solution as though it's universally applicable in lieu of thought? In the flow of some music, V to iii might be a type of delayed or deceptive etc harmonic cadence; iii only differing from I by one tone. We need examine musical decisions in context. No context, and here assertion with no argument in support of it = meaning is nil.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Oct 28, 2023 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I mean, the topic title suggests there are people that would absolutely prefer prefabrication to this extent that are too dull to do more, but there is one short answer to the question of the initial post read properly, and that's no, there isn't. A musician with some experience might well "know" what the next chord is in the certain musical context they find themselves in the midst of, but music theory principles as prescriptions isn't it. Again, if music were not more than a paint-by-numbers automatism, we have a creatively DOA endeavor. Imagine a chapter in a course in writing that's all about sorting what your sentences may be syntactically in lieu of all thought.
I've noticed this over the years on music theory boards, the tendency of the naive to want sure-fire chord progressions as though this should make things easy. One of (if not *the*) first meaningful lessons I remember from harmony class (Diatonic "first year") was a melody harmonized with what's known as weak progressions, ie., by 3rds and 2nds (the exercise being make this sound fantastic by your part-writing). But, this distinction between weak movement and strong movement is not to be considered bad vs good; that language is not meant as pejorative. All strong movement all the time will become tiresome. Seems obvious.
I've noticed this over the years on music theory boards, the tendency of the naive to want sure-fire chord progressions as though this should make things easy. One of (if not *the*) first meaningful lessons I remember from harmony class (Diatonic "first year") was a melody harmonized with what's known as weak progressions, ie., by 3rds and 2nds (the exercise being make this sound fantastic by your part-writing). But, this distinction between weak movement and strong movement is not to be considered bad vs good; that language is not meant as pejorative. All strong movement all the time will become tiresome. Seems obvious.
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- KVRAF
- 4837 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
Yes, the jargon for "what chords usually fall" is common chord progressions, so Google that to get lists like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ogressions
As you can see, that page has a long list of the world's most common chord progressions, and each progression links to its own Wikipedia page, with its common chord variations, lists of common songs using that progression, many common audio examples, common academic references, and the total commercial revenue produced by each common progression.
Google is the "way to know" about music theory
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
The Wiki there is very good for a surface examination of (very) different approaches to chord progression without being so redundant. But we are to take a b5 substitute for dominant as something that "usually falls" another specific chord? In what music? With what kind of melody? WHY? The usage strictly belongs to jazz post WWII, the bebop vocabulary centers on this evolutionary step. Dominant is going to follow subdominant, but not IV but ii. And if you don't know the idea for a lot of the changes there is to tonicize non-tonic chords, you may not get that half the ii-Vs are ii-V at all.
If we are going to say it "usually falls after a specific chord", we're going to have to have a context before we say it.
Then I see bVII7 used in what's called a backdoor progression. With the "front door" being V7. This back door harmony is usual? For_what_music. I never heard of the term before the internet.
What is the musical reasoning for this particular move (and it's a very particular one)? It's a wholly different sound than the dominant the article places it alongside. Just as w. the b5 substitute for V7, before we even bring it in we require its context.
<is there any way to know?> with no context whatsoever. The "answer" again is a list of things which may happen (context suggested, which is a slight advancement over the chart posted with no remark given), yet with no reason giving for a move having happened, ie., not a real answer.
If you know from experience where Ice Cream changes happen, and in certain music very little if anything else does happen (Doo Wop), you can know IV and V are going to follow I and vi. (Except that some of the time it isn't IV but ii6. Ask me why.)
If we're going to talk about I IV bVII IV we should note that bVII is "IV of IV" aka double plagal; it's a gospel music move. <Plagal Cadence IV - I (at the end of the iterance of the tune) being known as "Amen Cadence">
There are times in music over the ages where the chord progression is primary, the famous Chaconne by JS Bach (Chaconne like Passacaglia does this, that's the form) is one. Pachelbel's Canon, the memorable thing there is the chord progression, apparently.
But probably the majority of music using chords harmonizes a melody. Ice Cream Changes, or the Pachelbel Canon type of changes are strictly from major key but bVII is flown in from elsewhere (it has fewer chances of being an obvious choice).
When I was 15 or 16 I happened upon a little booklet of common chord progressions, alerting me that there's a formulaic approach to the thing. I recognized some of it as I had learned a fair amount of songs both from songbooks and transcribing off of records. One of the records was You Never Give Me Your Money, Abbey Road by The Beatles.
The single thing seeing this book did for me was 'Aha. So *this* is why so much music does nothing new and sounds exactly the same as other music' (so naive was I). I was working with a singer songwriter around this time and he had the same sort of dismissive impression. He knew how to make a Beatles-y thing by ear. At a certain point we wanted to do something more unique or "original", so I'm sure he didn't consult the little pamphlet for inspiration. No, it was 'yeah, we're not doing that'. While I see that McCartney song pointed to frequently enough as quite sophisticated changes, it didn't take that much of an ear to find the chords.
I reckon the person asking after formula has not been learning songs first. Absent that, these lists and charts won't tend to have much meaning.
If we are going to say it "usually falls after a specific chord", we're going to have to have a context before we say it.
Then I see bVII7 used in what's called a backdoor progression. With the "front door" being V7. This back door harmony is usual? For_what_music. I never heard of the term before the internet.
What is the musical reasoning for this particular move (and it's a very particular one)? It's a wholly different sound than the dominant the article places it alongside. Just as w. the b5 substitute for V7, before we even bring it in we require its context.
<is there any way to know?> with no context whatsoever. The "answer" again is a list of things which may happen (context suggested, which is a slight advancement over the chart posted with no remark given), yet with no reason giving for a move having happened, ie., not a real answer.
If you know from experience where Ice Cream changes happen, and in certain music very little if anything else does happen (Doo Wop), you can know IV and V are going to follow I and vi. (Except that some of the time it isn't IV but ii6. Ask me why.)
If we're going to talk about I IV bVII IV we should note that bVII is "IV of IV" aka double plagal; it's a gospel music move. <Plagal Cadence IV - I (at the end of the iterance of the tune) being known as "Amen Cadence">
There are times in music over the ages where the chord progression is primary, the famous Chaconne by JS Bach (Chaconne like Passacaglia does this, that's the form) is one. Pachelbel's Canon, the memorable thing there is the chord progression, apparently.
But probably the majority of music using chords harmonizes a melody. Ice Cream Changes, or the Pachelbel Canon type of changes are strictly from major key but bVII is flown in from elsewhere (it has fewer chances of being an obvious choice).
When I was 15 or 16 I happened upon a little booklet of common chord progressions, alerting me that there's a formulaic approach to the thing. I recognized some of it as I had learned a fair amount of songs both from songbooks and transcribing off of records. One of the records was You Never Give Me Your Money, Abbey Road by The Beatles.
The single thing seeing this book did for me was 'Aha. So *this* is why so much music does nothing new and sounds exactly the same as other music' (so naive was I). I was working with a singer songwriter around this time and he had the same sort of dismissive impression. He knew how to make a Beatles-y thing by ear. At a certain point we wanted to do something more unique or "original", so I'm sure he didn't consult the little pamphlet for inspiration. No, it was 'yeah, we're not doing that'. While I see that McCartney song pointed to frequently enough as quite sophisticated changes, it didn't take that much of an ear to find the chords.
I reckon the person asking after formula has not been learning songs first. Absent that, these lists and charts won't tend to have much meaning.
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- KVRAF
- 4837 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
"One pill" that contains the antidote to charts & commonality is the musical idea, a succession of notes with intervals or rhythm (aka motif) that are repeated, varied and contrasted to create a *beautiful* composition.
I DuckDuckGo'd musical idea and found
teacher & metal guitar virtuoso Pedro Almeida made this simple illustration:
https://www.beyondmusictheory.org/how-t ... cal-ideas/
I DuckDuckGo'd musical idea and found
teacher & metal guitar virtuoso Pedro Almeida made this simple illustration:https://www.beyondmusictheory.org/how-t ... cal-ideas/
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
seems like I'm driven to saying 'what is your musical idea' every time now. as far as chords questions anyway.
Nowt wrong with 'commonality' but my anecdote there was about encountering conformity and things I never wanted to sound like in the first place.
Oh, I found how it is I never heard of 'backdoor progression' before the internet: the term is Jerry Coker's, 1997.
"Coker, Jerry (1997). Elements of the Jazz Language for the Developing Improvisor, p.82." earliest reference in the article anyway & mentioned as primary source.
the logic for it is the fifth and seventh of the major/minor 7 on bVII lead down by semitone to the third and fifth of I.
In C: Bb7's F and Ab to E and G.
This follows an assertion "a dominant seventh. Therefore, it can resolve to I.". What? It's the dominant of bIII. The progression there is given IV - iv - bVII-7 - I. No examples given. I can't say how common or not it is, I don't know it. My eyes are glazing over after following up on links from it. Weird shit too, like in [article = Mixolydian] the old church polyphony they meant Mixolydian applies Mixo - which means mixed - to Lydian which it closely resembles. Articles made by a committee which never met, some of it makes sense, some doesn't.
Nowt wrong with 'commonality' but my anecdote there was about encountering conformity and things I never wanted to sound like in the first place.
Oh, I found how it is I never heard of 'backdoor progression' before the internet: the term is Jerry Coker's, 1997.
"Coker, Jerry (1997). Elements of the Jazz Language for the Developing Improvisor, p.82." earliest reference in the article anyway & mentioned as primary source.
the logic for it is the fifth and seventh of the major/minor 7 on bVII lead down by semitone to the third and fifth of I.
In C: Bb7's F and Ab to E and G.
This follows an assertion "a dominant seventh. Therefore, it can resolve to I.". What? It's the dominant of bIII. The progression there is given IV - iv - bVII-7 - I. No examples given. I can't say how common or not it is, I don't know it. My eyes are glazing over after following up on links from it. Weird shit too, like in [article = Mixolydian] the old church polyphony they meant Mixolydian applies Mixo - which means mixed - to Lydian which it closely resembles. Articles made by a committee which never met, some of it makes sense, some doesn't.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
There is a second definition of backdoor progression (article = backdoor progression) which tonicizes iii as substitute for I^9, iiø7 of iii/V7 of iii/iii7. Which may have wound up in the "Bird" progression, which is so long I lost the plot.
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- KVRAF
- 4837 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
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starlitewalker starlitewalker https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=681890
- KVRer
- 26 posts since 31 Oct, 2023
I had this problem for ages, for me the circle of fifths is a godsend!
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- KVRist
- 277 posts since 23 Feb, 2023
I could teach you but then I'd have to kill you!... There are all kinda systems that individual 'musicians' use it's much better if you had ear trained during the era of vinyl no substitutes...
Let me tell you what I see 'wrong' with what many are doing, avoid that & you are well off...
1-Never start a tune laying drum tracks... You are allowing the least melodic instrument to be focus of another boring tune even you will forget about... Back in the 70's being an a variety of bands never did we turn to the drummer & say 'Go for it MAN!... We'll follow along!' This is why MANY pro drummers are also expert in keyboards or other...
2-Tone down the drums, we all know that's an instrument most can play these days so other 'Bam-Bams' focus in on it but the general listener does not...
3-No 'FULL-OUT' High Speed full-volume from the start garbage, it leaves you nowhere to go & nobody is going to listen to 15 minutes of this all repeating into madness, leave plenty of volume space for areas that need it & unless you are real good keep your tunes to 2-3 minutes remember people are like goldfish now...
4-If your tune IS longer than think about a bar or two of complete silence, this brings the audience 'back'... Mariachi bands do this as some of their tunes are 15-20 minutes long...
5-No matter what kinda music you make get OUT of using simple triads, I use zero triads in anything I make you will have a greater range of melodic possibility you can make them as TECH or PUNK as you want...
6-Start bringing in more frequent chord changes as this also opens up greater possibilities of creative expression you don't have to have a chord change every 1-2 seconds like in 'Do You Hear the Voices that Left You Behind' I'm sure even Stanley Clarke's forearms were in knots on that one. But this can also be used changing chord inversions or compound type-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=i3JC-WH21xM
You can support me on Shitreon...
Let me tell you what I see 'wrong' with what many are doing, avoid that & you are well off...
1-Never start a tune laying drum tracks... You are allowing the least melodic instrument to be focus of another boring tune even you will forget about... Back in the 70's being an a variety of bands never did we turn to the drummer & say 'Go for it MAN!... We'll follow along!' This is why MANY pro drummers are also expert in keyboards or other...
2-Tone down the drums, we all know that's an instrument most can play these days so other 'Bam-Bams' focus in on it but the general listener does not...
3-No 'FULL-OUT' High Speed full-volume from the start garbage, it leaves you nowhere to go & nobody is going to listen to 15 minutes of this all repeating into madness, leave plenty of volume space for areas that need it & unless you are real good keep your tunes to 2-3 minutes remember people are like goldfish now...
4-If your tune IS longer than think about a bar or two of complete silence, this brings the audience 'back'... Mariachi bands do this as some of their tunes are 15-20 minutes long...
5-No matter what kinda music you make get OUT of using simple triads, I use zero triads in anything I make you will have a greater range of melodic possibility you can make them as TECH or PUNK as you want...
6-Start bringing in more frequent chord changes as this also opens up greater possibilities of creative expression you don't have to have a chord change every 1-2 seconds like in 'Do You Hear the Voices that Left You Behind' I'm sure even Stanley Clarke's forearms were in knots on that one. But this can also be used changing chord inversions or compound type-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=i3JC-WH21xM
You can support me on Shitreon...
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- KVRAF
- 15014 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
There isn’t one. Write a good melody and the proper chord progression will make itself evident.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
If that were true, all good melodies carry obvious harmony per se.
No.
https://youtu.be/N01RFpaez84?si=TS82eQEkAskV6VgV
No.
https://youtu.be/N01RFpaez84?si=TS82eQEkAskV6VgV
