? Key Signature, Circle of Fifths, #/b naming conventions.

[D2sX9ek8w3]

Hi,
I have a question about naming conventions for Major and minor key signatures. I have been trying to relearn ideas that I last studied 40 years ago, and I wonder if I understand this correctly.

As part of a study aid, I wanted to make a list of basic Major and Minor song keys, and I did not want to use labeling that is unconventional.

Here is the list:
Major keys
C
Db / C#
D
Eb
E
F
Gb / F#
G
Ab
A
Bb
B / Cb

minor key relatives
A
Bb / A#
B
C
C#
D
Eb / D#
E
F
F#
G
G# / Ab

My question: Is this a comprehensive list of the Major and minor keys within the context of standardized naming conventions?

I don't think I am asking the question effectively, but as an example, would a trained musician ever properly describe a song key as G# Maj rather than Ab Maj?

I realize I have been casual with the use of sharp and flat designations and I would like to evolve to conform to the rules of theory.

Am I on the right track?

Thank you!

[Anteros]

Take my information with a grain of salt since I'm more of an amateur with only a few months music theory training.

The key signature name usually refers to the the tonic/root note. If the song key is G#Maj than the root note is a G#. If the key signature is Ab Maj, then the root note is Ab. Check out which note the song ends with and it usually ends on the tonic note and/or chord. Of course, I'm sure there are examples where this is not the case though - there always is.

I think your list is pretty good but I'm not sure if it's 100% thorough. I'm used to having them organized on a circle of fifths based on sharps and flats so the ordering is throwing me off a little. I think there are there are more theoretical key signatures beyond the sharps and flats you have listed. Check out the "theoretical keys" page on wikipedia for more information on those.

[jancivil]

I don't think I am asking the question effectively, but as an example, would a trained musician ever properly describe a song key as G# Maj rather than Ab Maj?

I realize I have been casual with the use of sharp and flat designations and I would like to evolve to conform to the rules of theory.

There can be reasons for the existence of "G# major" technically, in a context of very sharp areas, but as a key signature it's unwieldy enough to the point it's not done. G# major is pretty much only going to exist in 12 tone Equal Temperament so you may as well effect Ab even getting there. The reasons I mention above are pretty esoteric and non-crucial anyway.

G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx; key sig. is what? Sharps in a key sig. containing sharps begin with the F#... . I would only ever describe it if I saw it. I haven't seen any key sig, I can't remember if I've ever encountered a passage def. in that key. By ear I would in all cases say Ab.

[jancivil]

EG: "A# minor" is a bit dodgy as any functional minor (having a major V harmony, ie., with the leading tone to A# {E# Gx B#} here will tend to be avoided in favor of Bb minor. rules of thumb are first, is a key signature viable and not like that G# key and second are we going to see a preponderance of double sharps and double flats in usage. So, owing to the fact and the prevalence in tonal music of a functioning minor a rule of thumb here is 'do you like that tonic in major?', it having double sharps etc.

"x" stands for double sharp.

[BertKoor]

Conventional labeling of a minor scale, eg A:

Am

Regarding sharp or flat:
If it is a raised G, then it's G#.
If it is a flattened A, then it's Ab.

[jancivil]

I can't discern what that's supposed to do. In the key of A minor, an Ab should pretty much only appear in chromatic descension, ie., [A] Ab G... while in that key a G# is the 3rd of its "V" or dominant harmony in harmonic or ascending melodic minor and part of the key.

minor key relatives
A
Bb / A#
B
C
C#
D
Eb / D#
E
F
F#
Ab
G# / B

Mistakes occur at the end of that list. G minor is omitted and the last entry should be Ab/G#, relative minors to Cb/B.

It's probably better to order the lists by circle of fifths for fullest clarity, with key signature depicted.

[D2sX9ek8w3]

Hi,
Thank you for the comments and explanations and for correcting the typo mistake.

Here are two charts I made up. The top one reflects my crude and casual all-purpose use of sharps. The bottom one reflects my efforts to acknowledge that each song key should have each note letter represented in the list.

Does the bottom chart seem comprehensive and correct for the basic Major and minor scales?

Thank you.

Song-Keys.jpg

[jancivil]

Does the bottom chart seem comprehensive and correct for the basic Major and minor scales?

those are fine

The upper picture has, eg., C# major having two [types of] Fs and two Cs.
Any seven-note set uses 7 letter names.
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#; key signature uses 7 sharps, key has/scale has 7 sharp notes

[D2sX9ek8w3]

Hi,
Thanks again for your help.

FWIW, the top chart in that picture is a throw away. It was just meant to show a starting point.

I'd add to the second chart if there was anything missing.

The C#, F#, and Cb were nicked from a circle of fifths chart. Would it seem prudent to add them to the second chart with the enharmonic sharps?

Thank you.

[jancivil]

Well yes, C Sharp Major et al is/are [an] actual key(s)

(most of us are not going to use say the Werckmeister 3 temperament instead of 12tET, but there's enough music software that includes it to suggest it's not vanished off the face of the planet; or the 1/6th comma temperaments and so forth... in which cases C# major and Db major aren't exactly the same 7 notes. Leave alone horns which are built from definite keys: Key of C# played by an Eb horn is not the same as Db on the Eb horn. Or the Bb instrument. There was a saying among jazz saxophonists regarding a key like B: 'Hillbilly key' (John Coltrane Giant Steps starts in B major; fingerings get weird.).).

The more prudent chart is going to order by circle of fifths (showing the specific sense of the whole). Modulation by a semitone isn't going to occur as frequently as a modulation up a Perfect 4th aka down a P5th in Common Practice...

[BertKoor]

Once you know how to construct it, know how it works, such tables are not needed any more. These are great to draw initially, to check your understanding, but in the long run... naah.

I think of scales as series of intervals. Consecutive notes in a diatonical scale are either a semitone or a whole tone apart.

Code: Select all

 Do    Re    Mi    Fa    So    La    Ti    Do
Root  Whole Whole Half  Whole Whole Whole Half

If you see a score with a B flat, it may fit the G major scale. But it could also be C Mixolydian: regular major scale but with flat seven.

Code: Select all

 Do    Re    Mi    Fa    So    La    Ti    Do
Root  Whole Whole Half  Whole Whole Half  Whole

[D2sX9ek8w3]

Thanks to both of you for your help.

FWIW, this chart is just an interim tool for a DIY project I am working on, where I would like to avoid using unconventional labeling of song keys within the context of the basic Ionan and relative Aoelian forms.

The cartesian chart format, which was assembled while referring to a circle of fifths chart, is helpful to that end.

In the midst of working through that project, I realized that I had been too casual or ignorant in previous cases.

For example, In a piece I refer to as "Composition No. 6 in G-Sharp Melodic Minor, Fantasy," it had not occurred to me that perhaps I should have called it A-flat because I wrote it by ear and inferred that G# was the tonic when I reflected upon what I had played.

But that is not the original reason for asking the question; it's a question that arose while asking the original question.

My goal with the original question is to compile a comprehensive list of the Major (Ionian) song keys, where I use all the names that would be encountered while not using any that are possible but would never be encountered due to naming conventions.

[D2sX9ek8w3]

Here is an updated version of the chart. It has, to the best of my intent, all the keys displayed on a circle of fifths and none that are not. I guess I am asking if that constitutes a comprehensive list of the song keys a formally educated musician would encounter.

Song-Keys.jpg

Thank you!

[jancivil]

a circle of fifths column orders like this:
C - 0 sharps or flats
G - 1#
D - 2#s
A - 3#s
E - 4#s
B/Cb - 5#s/7bs
F#/Gb - 6#s/6bs
C#/Db - 7#s/5bs
Ab - 4bs
Eb - 3bs
Bb - 2bs
F - 1b
[C]

seriously clearer than ordering by semitone. Note that at ~180º the enharmonics all add up to 12. Which is why there is no G# which doesn't add up; its 7th note cancels the first sharp. There is no 8#s/4bs etc.

G# Melodic minor, you've run into the comparatively exotic F double sharp, same as in G# major which I omit from the circle as it doesn't comport with key signatures. I mean we can write that but the no first sharp as normally ordered is a bit out-of-joint or something. G# plain minor is only 5 sharps, so the one accidental is not quite the same problem as G# major.

side note: I advise against making "major" and "Ionian" the very same thing, as they are two things. Major indicates a leading tone at 7 and major key. Ionian is a mode, which means it's a different thing than major key. IE: the ^7 is free to not be the functional leading tone/3rd of the V harmony in the key.

There is for instance Indian Classical Music that uses the same 7 notes as major but the 7 is not a leading tone, it's not part of the thought. Bilaval Thaat is the parent to ragas. Sometimes it gets called 'in Western key' which is a misnomer.
Watermelon in Easter Hay by Frank Zappa is primarily E Ionian: the first note of the thing, and of the main melody is D# but over an A chord, that moves down to B (over the E chord); in no case does it work like it does in major key, behaving modally, more like ICM than not. (Modal playing doesn't need all the chords typical of western concert ("classical") music.)

Aeolian is the same 7 as natural minor oc, which doesn't quite function; so to my mind may as well be the same thing; it's 'minor key' if the leading tone is involved, in my assessment.