The Dorian Mode And Scale "Tendencies"

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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BertKoor wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:52 am
mjudge55 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:26 pmWhy don't all the intervals need to be sounded?
Because our brain is trained to recognise patterns with only a fraction of information. You fill the blanks yourself.
Again, why does it recognize Dm-G as dorian and not melodic minor? Or does it? Things that cross my mind:

1. in these chords we don't hear melodic minor's characteristic M7, so perhaps we default to the mode whose characteristic intervals we have heard.
2. the chords themselves still leave entirely ambiguous the exact mode, and other parts, e.g. the melody supply the distinguishing info. It seems counterintuitive that i-IV would be typically dorian though if it doesn't establish dorian by itself. i9-IV would though...
3. the brain expects to hear the diatonic sequence of intervals regardless of which of its notes you start from, so dorian is a default where there is ambiguity. This could be physiological relating to how our brains receive the series of 4th/5ths that comprise the diatonic scale, the overtone series, and sequence of frequency ratios between intervals, but I'm out of my depth on that. And/or...
4. We're just trained by convention to hear i-IV as typically dorian. But does my 2.5 year old daughter who's never heard Santana have this training somehow?
5. Hearing i-IV repeatedly in a vamp, without IV ever going to bVII tells us we're not in the world of functional harmony. Melodic minor's typical context is within functional harmony. Between these two things we're likely to feel we're in dorian. But given that in functional harmony resolution to tonic is often delayed for some time, why is i-IV played a few times sufficient to establish dorian? Maybe it isn't?
BertKoor wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:52 am
It could take some time to realise the full scale is not Dorian but merely pentatonic with some notes being accidentals.
If that's the case then I suppose it's 2-4 above or some combo.
Last edited by mjudge55 on Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Dupe

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mjudge55 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:44 pm
BertKoor wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:52 am
mjudge55 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:26 pmWhy don't all the intervals need to be sounded?
Because our brain is trained to recognise patterns with only a fraction of information. You fill the blanks yourself.
Again, why does it recognize Dm-G as dorian and not melodic minor? Or does it?
"Melodic minor" in ascension (aka "Jazz Minor") needs a ^7 to be that thing. It isn't_present in the chord change Dm to G major. If "it" "recognizes" Melodic Minor ascending without C# in this case it's fabricating. It isn't "filling in", there is no necessity of Melodic Minor ascending over what "it" [one's "brain?"] may simply perceive as complete enough in itself for the task at hand (unless one is just that entrained to it above the other thing, which is a compromised basis in which to operate).

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Passante wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:57 amMy question is, do you have a natural tendency towards a specific mode/scale? Have you looked back at your music to analyze this aspect? Is your music mostly bright, happy or sadder sounding?
First, as to the last sentence I don't approach music from these kinds of words as though in front of the object at all. It strikes me as... unsophisticated and inexperienced. EG: 'Major is happy, Minor is sad' are not necessarily true things to say about an object once examined, let alone while working in music.

I actually do have a sort of natural leaning to Mixolydian, or to Dorian over Aeolian and this goes back to when I was 16 or 17. But more than this to Mixolydian but 4 is raised. It's called "overtone" among a number of other names; I think technically the aspect of a similarity to the overtone series (NB: partials 7, 9, 11*) may have a lot to do with it here.
(*: 11 is almost a quarter tone 'wrong' but working in 12tET it's hard to care a lot about the distinction, IME)

It doesn't at all mean I'm going to do one or another the majority of the time I think modally.

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mjudge55 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:44 pm or...
4. We're just trained by convention to hear i-IV as typically dorian. But does my 2.5 year old daughter who's never heard Santana have this training somehow?
No idea what a 2 year old's ear for modal playing have to do with anything. It implies that some automatic "I hear i-IV a few times and know it's Dorian" is entrained behavior. Ok. I don't know whom this applies to but it's a basis for the latter question.
mjudge55 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:44 pm 5. Hearing i-IV repeatedly in a vamp, without IV ever going to bVII tells us we're not in the world of functional harmony. Melodic minor's typical context is within functional harmony. Between these two things we're likely to feel we're in dorian. But given that in functional harmony resolution to tonic is often delayed for some time, why is i-IV played a few times sufficient to establish dorian? Maybe it isn't?
i-IV may not strictly mean Dorian, but a repeated vamp where that's the most of what happens, if not all of what happens in a bit of music tends to out as Dorian mode. 1) the fact of it being all of what happens in the vertical or harmonic realm and 2) the whole fabric of repeated vamp designed for 'a guitar (or what-have-you) solo' means in all likelihood modal playing. Hence, a real-world example of it working.

Critically, in itself if all we have is i-IV in a vamp (BTFW this in the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression as modeled it's bloody clear what is happening) 'Maybe it isn't' remains to be seen. If I land on C# here, I need to make it work or it's a wrong note. To make it work means taking it into a new area, or now we heed Miles Davis and "there are no wrong notes", ie., make it convincing.

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the chances of a i-IV vamp suddenly becoming harmonic, tonal function in actual practice seems pretty low. if not awkward and incoherent

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jancivil wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:47 pm
i-IV may not strictly mean Dorian, but a repeated vamp where that's the most of what happens, if not all of what happens in a bit of music tends to out as Dorian mode. 1) the fact of it being all of what happens in the vertical or harmonic realm and 2) the whole fabric of repeated vamp designed for 'a guitar (or what-have-you) solo' means in all likelihood modal playing. Hence, a real-world example of it working.

Critically, in itself if all we have is i-IV in a vamp (BTFW this in the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression as modeled it's bloody clear what is happening) 'Maybe it isn't' remains to be seen. If I land on C# here, I need to make it work or it's a wrong note. To make it work means taking it into a new area, or now we heed Miles Davis and "there are no wrong notes", ie., make it convincing.
Thanks for this. I suppose I'm being a bit simple thinking there needs to be some ironclad or even scientifc explanation why the practice is the practice, when all that's needed is for science and theory to be very consistent with a strong tendency to the practice, and to provide a language for talking about it. And then you have the out that the practice doesn't forbid deviation, but just requires extremely good execution to justify.

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To me, Dorian defines much of uplifting trance, bringing to mind releases by some UK and Nordic artists.

Some examples would be:

Slusink Luna - Sun (4:15)
There the IV is in passing as IV-v, followed by bVII-i.


Anjunabeats - Volume One (Original Mix) (2:09)


Super8 & Tab feat. Anton Sonin - Black Is The New Yellow (Original Mix) (1:49)
A rather clean example of i-bIII-v-IV (or 0[0,3,7] - 3[0,4,7] - 7[0,3,7] - 5[0,4,7] for those who think in 12).



From eurodance (historically preceding the above trance tracks) a couple of i-v-ii-IV (or 0[0,3,7] - 7[0,3,7] - 2[0,3,7] - 5[0,4,7]) examples come to mind:

Culture Beat - Serenity (Epilog) (1:09)
2 Unlimited- Jump for Joy



From videogames I recall The River of Souls from Turok 2 (3:17)
First two chords changes of the main progression are i-IV.


And if that seems to remind you of something, it might be The Good, the Bad and the Ugly theme.
At first the IV seems implied, and at other places (1:00) it's actually there.


Passante wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:57 am [...] My question is, do you have a natural tendency towards a specific mode/scale? Have you looked back at your music to analyze this aspect?
Natural Minor, Dorian... sometimes Mixolydian. At least when I'm not using the "12 degrees, any pitch set on any degree" approach. The latter is more fun when creating freely on a whim, whereas scales I tend to use as shortcuts towards something predefined.

I'd agree with your characterization of Dorian. Hopeful, bittersweet, ambiguous.

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