Magix - what on earth, what on earth...

[jens]

I'm waiting for them to sell Acid Pro on humble bumble for 20 bucks. Was first DAW I dabbled with way back in the 1900s.

They did ACID Pro 10 not long ago.

It's literally the most unstable DAW that has ever existed, though. I wouldn't trust it with any real work.

I also find marketing a bit odd, using strange terms that mean nothing to musicians
- object editing for one, what is it compared to just editing clips?

Isn't "object" the term Magix uses for "clips"?

That is what I think too, why use such an odd term for it?
- I never saw a good explanation for difference

Yes, "Object" is Magix-speak for "Clip".
Keep in mind that Samplitude 2496 had "Object" based editing decades ago.
At that time, it was revolutionary to have so much realtime/non-destructive control over each audio clip.
You could swap L/R channels, flip phase, static gain adjustment, fade in/out (including advanced tapers), apply 3rd-party plugins, etc.

In Samplitude, every object is its own full level of abstraction. It is as important as a Track or Bus. It has its own Channel Strip, Automation, Effects, Sends, etc.

The way you think of Tracks in any other DAW... Objects are treated the exact same way in Samplitude Pro X. This is why the Object-Oriented Editing is a thing there, and a legit marketing point.

Lots of DAWs have Clip FX, etc. but most do not go as far as Samplitude Pro X when it comes to this.

If the DAW was better for production, this would be a legit selling point. But, they have really gong out of their way to niche themselves off to Audio Engineering sub segments. They almost try TOO hard to do this.

Considering how early a lot of its core feature set was implemented, it's actually impressive what the earlier developers did with it. It actually matured quickly and nicely earlier on. Then, it just stagnated. It really should be challenging Cubase, at this point, in terms of being an broad generalist option in the market.

Unfounded claims and empty phrases aside, you basically say nothing here that's not already in the bit you quoted - you basically repeat what he just said.

Can't you please try to... be just a little less annoying?

[Jim Roseberry]

Outside of people exaggerating the merits of the Object Editor, there is almost no redeeming quality to their products.

You can workaround a DAW not having Object/Clip based editing.
But... it's a whole lot quicker/easier to just have those features per-Object/Clip (realtime/non-destructive).

While I don't use Pro X5 much these days, I use those same type of features in other DAWs.
In Reaper, I use the Item Editor's Static Gain, Playback-Rate, Pitch Adjust, and Fade Curves all the time.

I have been asking for similar features (Static Clip Gain control) in Sonar/Cakewalk for decades.
Ironically, Cakewalk Pro Audio 4.0 (first version that could record audio) had a Static Gain control for each audio Clip. In fact, that was the only means of controlling a Clip's volume.
There were no Volume/Pan envelopes... and no realtime effects.

[lfm]

I have been asking for similar features (Static Clip Gain control) in Sonar/Cakewalk for decades.

You adjust clip gain in upper middle of a clip in Sonar
- just click and drag up and down
- not what you mean?

I don't remember if inspector has a control for it too.

On each left/right end you do fade in and out.

[jens]

Yes, in both Reaper and Samplitude this controls the same parameter. Samplitude however has an additional gain-knob... (they suggest to use this (by copying/pasting the value) for instance when you normalize an audio-object where the file has a rather low gain, so that you still can use the full range of the normal volume-fader) and in Samplitude this fader can sometimes be much more comfortable to use than the (depending on the zoom-level, etc.) potentially quite fiddly gain-handle on the clip. And since the Object-Editor is dockable you also can quickly move from item to item that way (it has even buttons for that in the Object-Editor (track up/down; next clip left/right), so that's an alternative way to move through your project without have to leave your object editor to fine-tune it).

They kept improving the Object-Editor over the years and today it really offers most extensive functionality unlike anything else.

[Jim Roseberry]

I have been asking for similar features (Static Clip Gain control) in Sonar/Cakewalk for decades.

You adjust clip gain in upper middle of a clip in Sonar
- just click and drag up and down
- not what you mean?

I don't remember if inspector has a control for it too.

On each left/right end you do fade in and out.

I'm aware of using Clip Envelopes.
Often, I just want a quick way to add/subtract gain.
With a static gain control, you could literally just type -3dB and it would be quick/precise.
Clip Envelopes (IMO) are better suited to volume changes over time.
I find them tedious for making simple gain changes (vs Samplitude and Reaper's Object/Item based static gain control).

[jens]

I'm aware of using Clip Envelopes.
Often, I just want a quick way to add/subtract gain.
With a static gain control, you could literally just type -3dB and it would be quick/precise.
Clip Envelopes (IMO) are better suited to volume changes over time.
I find them tedious for making simple gain changes (vs Samplitude and Reaper's Object/Item based static gain control).

Well, he wasn't actually talking about clip envelopes but rather about the clips' gain-handle, which - as I just mentioned - literally controls the same parameter as the volume fader in both Reaper's and Samplitude's Object Editor / Item Properties

[Jim Roseberry]

I'm aware of using Clip Envelopes.
Often, I just want a quick way to add/subtract gain.
With a static gain control, you could literally just type -3dB and it would be quick/precise.
Clip Envelopes (IMO) are better suited to volume changes over time.
I find them tedious for making simple gain changes (vs Samplitude and Reaper's Object/Item based static gain control).

Well, he wasn't actually talking about clip envelopes but rather about the clips' gain-handle, which - as I just mentioned - literally controls the same parameter as the volume fader in both Reaper's and Samplitude's Object Editor / Item Properties

And how do you expose that Gain Handle?
You click on Clip Automation>Gain (which shows the Clip Envelope).
If no points are plotted, it's a straight line across the Clip at 0dB.
You can then hold Ctrl and drag the Gain Handle (aka Clip Envelope) up/down as a whole.

For static gain changes, I much prefer what's offered in Samplitude and Reaper's Object/Item Editors.

[jens]

You still talk about a clip-envelope (which is a seperate gain-stage) while we talk about the clips' volume-handles, which - as I think I mentioned before - control the exact same parameter as the object-/clip-fader you prefer.

■ The volume handle at the top center of the object can be used to change the object
volume.
The volume handle can also be configured in the view options in a way that the height of
the handle corresponds to the set object volume. To do this, deactivate the Volume
handles on top option in the Object section.
The object volume can also be changed at the numerical display by
dragging the mouse vertically.

That's from X8's manual, but it's basically the same in Reaper (just as in most other DAWs - I think it would be easier to list the DAWs which don't have it than those which do)

[Jim Roseberry]

FWIW, I'm talking about Cakewalk/Sonar (not Samplitude).
I think that's the reason why we're both kind of scratching our heads.

[jens]

Ah, silly me!

Tbh I haven't really use Sonar in a while and the way they were describing it sounded as if it had such volume-handles too - so Sonar is one of those few DAW which as of now lack that feature... ?

[Jim Roseberry]

Yeah, in Sonar (and Cakewalk by Bandlab), you have to activate Clip Automation.
Once you've done that, a Clip Envelope appears (by default flat at 0dB).
If you then press Ctrl, you can move the entire Clip Gain Envelope up/down.
It's ultimately the same function... but more clicks than it could/should be to get there.

[jens]

Is it even the same function though?

In both Samplitude and Reaper - and of course every other DAW that features both per-clip volume and per-clip volume automation - you can set the whole relative volume of a clip with the former and you can e.g. edit/correct the dynamics of a performance with the latter (or turn down excessive string-noise, breathing, whatever) - not so if both of these different gain-functions are combined into one.
(Of course you can then still use track-automation to automate the volume of it all.)

Each of these stages serves a different purpose - and it's the same with clip-fx vs track-fx, etc.

[vurt]

It didn't do everything I need - but X8 does - it's really schweet - and they keep improving it all the time. For instance there was a most-substantial update last Dezember (including MIDI-comping, per-track ARA and more new features) - no idea why they don't advertize that at all. Basically you need to be a user of X8 to be aware of it.

i basically use it as a tape recorder.
mixing is done before audio interface, so it is just hit record and im done.

[jens]

Heretic!!!

[Trensharo]

I have been asking for similar features (Static Clip Gain control) in Sonar/Cakewalk for decades.

You adjust clip gain in upper middle of a clip in Sonar
- just click and drag up and down
- not what you mean?

I don't remember if inspector has a control for it too.

On each left/right end you do fade in and out.

I'm aware of using Clip Envelopes.
Often, I just want a quick way to add/subtract gain.
With a static gain control, you could literally just type -3dB and it would be quick/precise.
Clip Envelopes (IMO) are better suited to volume changes over time.
I find them tedious for making simple gain changes (vs Samplitude and Reaper's Object/Item based static gain control).

If you want to adjust Clip Gain you simply don't use envelopes at all. You adjust the gain for the entire clip by pulling it down.

I am struggling to see the practical distinction, here.

@jens: I already stated that you were on the list, like 9+ months ago. Stop spamming notifications to me, please and thanks.