Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[Funk Dracula]

Yep, yep, the native modulation eats up the CPU under Live, but for me, Arturia has saved it, Efx MOTIONS options are already beyond the limit of healthy modulation possibilities


good stuff

and the other is the SSL 360°, so you don't have to throw in mixing-related plugins because AL now has a mixer

This is not the same as DAW-wide modulation options. This is just Arturia's version of other multi-effects plug-ins like Infiltrator, etc. (unless I am mistaken? if so sry!) It's all self-contained to one plug-in. DAW modulation options give EVERY plug-in the modulation possibilities that these multi-effect plug-ins offer.

Even plug-ins that offer their own modulation options, for example, like alot of the Fabfilter stuff does, there is no reason to use the included onboard modulation when you can go way deeper with DAW integrated modulation. Like modulating the filter cutoff of Fabfilter Volcano, and having that same modulation affect the drive of another distortion plug-in placed before Fabfilter Volcano. Or modulating instruments in parallel on the same track, crossfading between them, yet having both instruments having similar parameters being modulated by the same modulator to tie them together thematically. The entire signal chain is open to integrated musical possibilities like this.

I'll give another brief example; Still to this day one of my favorite algo reverbs is the Lexicon PCM Native bundle. I love the sound/algo's of them. Anyways, there's a nifty "tail width" slider on them that I always put to use. Bitwig has breathed new life/functionality into these reverb plug-ins because now I can make that fader move musically with every note I play, so I can use the Lexicon verbs as a truly musical and integrated option of a particular synth sound I'm designing.

Having functional, seemingly unlimited DAW modulation literally made me re-think the way I look at any plug-in and it's potential applications/uses. Make sense?

Cheers

[pdxindy]

One reason I use Bitwig is because MPE is important to me. The Linnstrument is my main controller for playing. The Linnstrument has a Channel Per Row mode which I make regular use of in a number of ways. Bitwig handles this mode fine cause it records the midi channel for each note. Ableton doesn't record midi channels so the Linnstrument CpR mode doesn't work in Live.

Yeah I appreciate that as well, especially since the Linnstrument respects the original MPE setup of upper and lower instruments, it's trivial to setup Bitwig to behave like that so you can use the split upper/lower setting in the Linnstrument.

I make a lot of use of the midi channel support in Bitwig... and not just for expected MPE use, but for other MPE-ish uses.

It's unfortunate that Live doesn't record midi channel data. It means in a number of use cases, Live will not accurately play back what the user played.

[3ptguitarist]

I know Bitwig is full of modulation options option, but has Ableton Live 12 added more and similar modulation features that's comparable to Bitwig? Or are there at least some max4live devices that can give ableton users similar modulation features?

In Bitwig, modulators can be per voice (polyphonic) with Bitwig instruments and some fx and also with some CLAP plugins. Polyphonic modulation is not possible in Live.

Also, the workflow is excellent, both when adding modulation and when editing it in Bitwig. For example, if I add 4-5 modulators to a Bitwig instrument or chain of devices, selecting that instrument or chain, you can see all those modulators in the Inspector along with all the destinations and modulation depths and everything can be adjusted in one place including modulation modifiers. The workflow is slow and clumsy by comparison in Live.

That is pretty impressive, but is it possible for Ableton to allow 3rd party VSTs to modulate anything in a similar?

[machinesworking]

Personally I still struggle with this question on which to concentrate on. I have a collaborator that's loyal to Live so until Live gets DAW Project I'll use it.

Features that swing me personally towards either is something like this:

- Bitwig per note automation, VS Live's inability to separate per channel MIDI.

-Bitwig audio comping probability VS Lives MIDI comping

-Bitwigs more stable easier to use Grid VS Lives M4L with a massive library including amazing paid devices. Some of which can solve things like SysEx etc.

-Control surface support is a wash IMO, Live gets much more support from developers directly, but Möss creates so many it's hard to think there's any loss on Bitwigs side, in fact the Generic controller is easily a win for Bitwig here. My only complaint is purely aesthetic, Lives Push 2 has beautiful looking device control panels for the instruments and FX and in general looks slicker.


Then there's the no comparison features:

Bitwig- Modifiers, just best in class that way. Modern support for CLAP and DAW Project. multiple audio files in a clip, direct bounce in place, Stability via plugin sandboxing.

Live- Direct movie support, including M4L devices to alter video with Jitter. Retrosepctive MIDI record, Groove pool. IMO Lives dual monitor suppor tis miles above Bitwigs, and more control over resizing the GUI. Live's choices for time stretching are great too.

I get caught myself here, partly because I use another DAW for most things not Clip based, orchestral work, general mixing and heavy use of piano roll editing, so Live for years was my secondary DAW, but MPE and honestly a tendency personally to like underdogs had me get Bitwig. My main DAW is Digital Performer and like Bitwig it's under represented in every community besides maybe film scoring. If my main DAW was Reaper It would be a no brainer to use the other DAW with CLAP and DAWproject.

The other thing is subjective, I end up doing music that sounds like some combination of modern and 70's new wave and synth soundtrack music in Bitwig. I'll blame the orange, but I have to say I don't mind, I'm fond of that period. Apologies for the long ramble, but I am still debating the merits myself so this thread is relevant to me.

[machinesworking]

This is not the same as DAW-wide modulation options. This is just Arturia's version of other multi-effects plug-ins like Infiltrator, etc. (unless I am mistaken? if so sry!) It's all self-contained to one plug-in. DAW modulation options give EVERY plug-in the modulation possibilities that these multi-effect plug-ins offer.

Even plug-ins that offer their own modulation options, for example, like alot of the Fabfilter stuff does, there is no reason to use the included onboard modulation when you can go way deeper with DAW integrated modulation. Like modulating the filter cutoff of Fabfilter Volcano, and having that same modulation affect the drive of another distortion plug-in placed before Fabfilter Volcano. Or modulating instruments in parallel on the same track, crossfading between them, yet having both instruments having similar parameters being modulated by the same modulator to tie them together thematically. The entire signal chain is open to integrated musical possibilities like this.

I'll give another brief example; Still to this day one of my favorite algo reverbs is the Lexicon PCM Native bundle. I love the sound/algo's of them. Anyways, there's a nifty "tail width" slider on them that I always put to use. Bitwig has breathed new life/functionality into these reverb plug-ins because now I can make that fader move musically with every note I play, so I can use the Lexicon verbs as a truly musical and integrated option of a particular synth sound I'm designing.

Having functional, seemingly unlimited DAW modulation literally made me re-think the way I look at any plug-in and it's potential applications/uses. Make sense?

Cheers

One thing about the plugin level modulation though, it's more or less permanent. Clips on the other hand in general make for immediately changeable modulation with plugin automation. I like LFOs and the other modulators but I kind of wish that Clips could contain new or different modulators. From what I know they can't but you can of course use a dummy clip to modulate in a specifically different way another track.
Where I get really excited about Bitwigs modulation is the fact you can use an ADSR on filters in plugins that do not have an ADSR for it for instance, like BA-1 etc.

[xbitz]

I can easily imagine that someone would be satisfied with the AL12 system. You know, some controls can have two sources: a modulator device such as the Shaper (which is on a different track and can be triggered by MIDI notes), and a modulator clip(clip envelope). Additionally, it can be assigned to a macro that can also be modified from both a clip and a modulator. Plus, each control can be automated separately.



anyway it's much better compare to AL11 they couldn’t rewrite the core, but they significantly expanded the system's capabilities

[SLiC]

Yes, I think this is the point. Bitwig has the best 'modulation system' of any DAW...but I suspect most people don't care and are used fixed architecture synths in hardware or hardware emulation form (rather than a modular) and probably never scratch the surface of what's capable even wit that (I know I don't). Unlimited modulation can be a bit of a rabbit hole...that said, if you use synths like Phase Plant or Falcon or VCV Rack you have pretty much unlimited modulation capabilities in any DAW. Also, plugs like Shaperbox 3 and infiltrator 2 also give a fun modulation toolbox to any DAW, we all probably have far more than we need on any platform!

I do however think more advanced audio editing (seeing/editng audio like midi with pitch quantise) is MIA from both DAWS (and midi comping from Bitwig) to just align with 'normal' DAW editing on the other main DAWS (Cubase, Logic, Studio One and even Reason!)..this is what both camps should be perusing IMO!

[xbitz]

^^^ "...Also, plugs like Shaperbox 3 and Infiltrator 2 also give a fun modulation toolbox to any DAW..." Neither of them can be compared to the capabilities of Bitwig. That's why I've mentioned the Arturia one.



It's still not a super serious system (vs ENRAGE | Modular Effect Plug-In), so it has the fun factor, but it also has Bitwig-like potential.

ps. so vs

which is ... much more auchh the Artuira one is much more user friendly casual one

[harddaysnight]

I posted earlier in this thread as I was deciding between a few DAWs - both Live 12 and Bitwig 5 were contenders, along with FL Studio.

I went for Live 12 - I've trialled everything so many times, and I keep coming back to Live's workflow - not to mention, I seriously love a few of Live's devices and there's also one in particular that made a huge part of my decision.

The Looper plugin. Not looping in clip view - I mean the actual looper plugin.
Bitwig doesn't have one. Nor does FL Studio. No other DAW has one and IMO that's completely absurd.

But it's built into the name "Live" - and as someone that plays live music for a living, I guess the decision should have been obvious from the start.

The looper plugin means I can use Live as a looper with a MIDI controller, can set tempo based on my first loop, can clear all loops with 1 button, you get the picture. I've already got it setup and love it for this.
I don't loop live anymore, and don't actually intend to - but I know I'd be an idiot, when switching DAWs, to NOT choose the one that has that as a possibility.

Roar is also a phenomenal saturator/multi-band compressor/distortion/whatever, it's versatile as heck.
Also, hybrid reverb is a monster, it's gorgeous.

I've also been getting some fantastic tones with Live's Amp and Cabinet - I didn't expect this. I'd been trialling Neural DSP's Cory Wong Archetype and thought it sounded beyond great, also like NAM and some stuff from tonehunt but the Cory Wong one is awesome for plug-n-play stuff.

I came across a video on YT from Seed To Stage covering whether some plugins were worth the money and pretty much nothing was, it was a killer vid and one of the comparisons was directly between that exact same Cory Wong Archetype vs Live's Amp and Cabinet, and the results were way closer than I thought they would be, completely underestimated Amp (and Cabinet) and have been having a blast with these. I'm getting some beautiful sounds from Live.

Bitwig's modulation isn't a big deal for me. :/

I fit more into the singer-songwriter box than the sound-engineer box.

[xbitz]

one downside of Ableton is that it really wants me to learn to program or at least manage the Max for Live framework, because it's not true that I have to depend on others (or the routing of AL) for ex if I want a Shaper that can be thrown behind a VST and triggered from another track

https://langsound.gumroad.com/l/shaper_buddy

[SLiC]

I posted earlier in this thread as I was deciding between a few DAWs - both Live 12 and Bitwig 5 were contenders, along with FL Studio.

I went for Live 12 - I've trialled everything so many times, and I keep coming back to Live's workflow - not to mention, I seriously love a few of Live's devices and there's also one in particular that made a huge part of my decision.

The Looper plugin. Not looping in clip view - I mean the actual looper plugin.
Bitwig doesn't have one. Nor does FL Studio. No other DAW has one and IMO that's completely absurd.

But it's built into the name "Live" - and as someone that plays live music for a living, I guess the decision should have been obvious from the start.

The looper plugin means I can use Live as a looper with a MIDI controller, can set tempo based on my first loop, can clear all loops with 1 button, you get the picture. I've already got it setup and love it for this.
I don't loop live anymore, and don't actually intend to - but I know I'd be an idiot, when switching DAWs, to NOT choose the one that has that as a possibility.

Roar is also a phenomenal saturator/multi-band compressor/distortion/whatever, it's versatile as heck.
Also, hybrid reverb is a monster, it's gorgeous.

I've also been getting some fantastic tones with Live's Amp and Cabinet - I didn't expect this. I'd been trialling Neural DSP's Cory Wong Archetype and thought it sounded beyond great, also like NAM and some stuff from tonehunt but the Cory Wong one is awesome for plug-n-play stuff.

I came across a video on YT from Seed To Stage covering whether some plugins were worth the money and pretty much nothing was, it was a killer vid and one of the comparisons was directly between that exact same Cory Wong Archetype vs Live's Amp and Cabinet, and the results were way closer than I thought they would be, completely underestimated Amp (and Cabinet) and have been having a blast with these. I'm getting some beautiful sounds from Live.

Bitwig's modulation isn't a big deal for me. :/

I fit more into the singer-songwriter box than the sound-engineer box.

I use the looper a lot (I am more of a guitarist than a producer) and the guitar stuff is pretty good (Co-developed with Softube who make good modelling amps), as is the drum bus (well worth using) and the glue compressor (made by Cytomic). There are some real gems in FX....

[pdxindy]

Yes, I think this is the point. Bitwig has the best 'modulation system' of any DAW...but I suspect most people don't care and are used fixed architecture synths in hardware or hardware emulation form (rather than a modular) and probably never scratch the surface of what's capable even wit that (I know I don't). Unlimited modulation can be a bit of a rabbit hole...that said, if you use synths like Phase Plant or Falcon or VCV Rack you have pretty much unlimited modulation capabilities in any DAW.

The thing with something like Phase Plant, it's unlimited modulation only works in Phase Plant.

Sometimes, when someone mentions Bitwig's unlimited modulation system, they ask who would need to put 30 LFO's on a plugin and that it seems like a rabbit hole of tweaking. I've never once put 30 LFO's on a device. To me, the value of Bitwig's modulation system is not that it is unlimited as in you can add dozens of modulators (though it can do that if you really want it), but that it can do all sorts of simple and useful tasks quickly and without getting boxed in.

For example:
1- If I have a compressor plugin that I like, but it doesn't have a sidechain input, I can add a sidechain modulator to it, then save that as the default and now every time I add that compressor plugin, the sidechain is there ready to use.

2- Then there are project level modulators in Bitwig. I can add a modulator knob and use it to fade 3 tracks down while fading 2 others up. Now I can automate just the macro knob, where previously I would have had to automate 5 tracks individually. And with the modulator knob doing the "automation", I can still freely adjust the 5 track's levels at any time.

3- Or I add an MSEG modulator at the project level, and I make it 16 bars long and for 15 bars it is flat and then slopes up for one bar. Then I use that to automate a bunch of parameters across multiple tracks and various devices (cutoffs, env's, fx mix amounts, etc.) to transition to the next part of the composition. Now, if I decide to start the transition one measure earlier, I only have to edit the one curve, instead of a dozen or more automation lanes across multiple tracks (which also freezes those parameters from being adjusted normally).

4- I always wanted to be able to modulate the Ring Mod Amount knob in u-he's ACE. It's one of the parameters that is not modulatable internally in the plugin. Now with the CLAP version, not only can I do so, but I can do so with a per voice envelope.

All 4 examples are simple... that is, they are only using a single modulator and are fast to setup and actually, they make a task that previously was tedious, easier, not just in setup, but in later adjusting. These cases are the opposite of the imaginary unlimited modulation rabbit hole.

Bitwig's modulation system, makes lots of stuff faster and easier. Plus, if someone is going to procrastinate and endlessly tweak stuff, there are already so many ways to do that in any DAW. Nobody's needs the excuse of Bitwig's unlimited modulation system to do so!

[machinesworking]

Bitwig doesn't have one. Nor does FL Studio. No other DAW has one and IMO that's completely absurd.

Digital Performer for one, has had a built in Looper since 2001 or earlier.

[xbitz]

Bitwig?

https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/gratis-hits/

ps. by the way, OSCiLLOT has a CV-based modulation system where you can interconnect smaller or larger things; it contains about 100 modules.


also fun, a major drawback of these wired systems is that you have to rewire everything if you want to change a module (like swapping one type of filter for another). In the Bitwig Grid, it's a great invention that they've solved this issue

[harddaysnight]

Bitwig doesn't have one. Nor does FL Studio. No other DAW has one and IMO that's completely absurd.

Digital Performer for one, has had a built in Looper since 2001 or earlier.

Never heard of it, but with a name like that, I would hope it did have one.