Best approach for integration of hardware effects and instruments in MuLab

[marcora]

I really like the direction the development is going and this has sparked my interest in MuLab (which is another way of saying that I am a total noob at this). Since I work a lot with external hardware, I was wondering whether MuLab has something similar to the "HW Instrument/Fx" devices found in Bitwig, Ableton and many other DAWs. Or if there is an alternative way of achieving the same end goal (seamless latency compensation with external hardware), perhaps within the modular "guts" of MuLab.

Thanks a lot for your help!

[pljones]

Are you on Windows or macOS?

Have you "penciled out" a combined physical / virtual wiring diagram of an example project you'd like to achieve? Having something definite to work towards always helps come up with a solution.

Short answer: all audio goes from a Project Audio In to a Project Audio Out to enter or leave MuLab. You'd need to ensure any routing diagram that included MuLab followed that constraint.

But... there are many ways to incorporate MuLab as a "through" or external Audio connections as "throughs" - it just takes using extra Audio Ins/Outs and an external virtual audio cable (e.g. JACK for Windows).

(I'll not comment on the latency compensation front: (a) you can't subtract latency and (b) I don't want latency added for any of the work I do.)

[marcora]

macOS

I haven't done much "wiring" yet because, before investing time in learning all of this, I wanted to make sure it is even possible. Most DAWs offer a device to do this more or less painlessly, but in some other DAW it is very painful (e.g., FL Studio).

Are these audio connections you are describing latency compensated to keep the timing of MIDI and Audio going out and back into MuLab in sync with the rest of the project?

Thanks

[pljones]

I know nothing about macOS, I'm afraid.

[marcora]

Thanks anyway!

Still at a loss why delay compensation for DAW -> hardware Fx/Instrument -> DAW would be OS-dependent. It all happens inside the DAW (using a specific HW Fx/Instrument device) regardless of OS in the DAWs that have good support for external hardware (Ableton Live, PreSonus Studio One, Bitwig Studio, etc.).

[pljones]

I don't see how hardware latency can be compensated for other than by manually telling the DAW how much to delay all other appropriate signal paths. You can certainly do that in MuLab. But it would depend on your signal path how you wanted to do it.

[marcora]

yes, that's how these other DAWs do it automatically. Can MuLab also do this automatically or the delays have to be set manually?

Thanks for your help

[Michael L]

I think you will need to try it out with your hardware routing cuz its all so different, e.g. I have a Dave Smith synth that can set its own latency and has a VST plug-in editor (I am on MacOS).

If hardware reports its latency it will be included in the APLC system, otherwise you can manually define latency using the Latency Generator module. ( I don't use Bitwig, but their device also does this both ways )

Note sometimes it's easier to use start markers & snap markers to align recorded audio clips & waveforms.

[whyterabbyt]

Still at a loss why delay compensation for DAW -> hardware Fx/Instrument -> DAW would be OS-dependent.

Because you're talking about compensating for delay incurred within the audio interface driver, and different OSes use different driver types.
The 'hardware' devices in some DAWs that you mention earlier are designed to automatically detect the compensation needed for a hardware chain, but DAWs without that can usually still do the compensation, except that it has to be set manually.
That often means referring to the buffer settings of the driver as a starting point. If you want to use an effect processor and your buffer is 1024 samples, then your starting point is at least 2048 samples to be compensated for, for example.

If you're using a DAW where there's no manual control over latency compensation, BTW, but it does have PDC, you can work around with Voxengo Latency Delay plugin.

[marcora]

Thank you all for your input. My question was about MuLab having a simple, automatic way of doing this (e.g., using an HW Instrument/Fx device like in Ableton or Bitwig). What I gather is that MuLab does not have this capability/device at the moment.

This could be a great addition for future updates.

Best

[mutools]

Did you check out MuLab's "Latency Generator" module?
Maybe it can help in integrating/compensating the hardware delays in the signal flow.

[marcora]

I am sure that, with time on hands, I could figure something out and make things work. My question was about whether something like the "External Fx/Instrument" devices offered by Bitwig, Live, Studio One, Logic, etc. (where one needs only to specify MIDI and audio outputs + audio input and everything is automagically latency compensated) are available in MuLab.

Definitely, in my opinion, a useful feature request for future releases.

Keep the good work and thank y'all for your answers

[pljones]

I think I see what you mean now -- effectively a "custom instrument/FX" wrapper for that piece of hardware that, when created, measures any latency and declares that back to the host, so the host can do any automated compensation that it offers?

[whyterabbyt]

effectively a "custom instrument/FX" wrapper for that piece of hardware that, when created, measures any latency and declares that back to the host, so the host can do any automated compensation that it offers?

yeah, basically.

would be nice if someone got around to combining that in one plugin with some sort of MIDI CC controls, (and maybe Program Change) I reckon.

[Michael L]

My question was about whether something like the "External Fx/Instrument" devices offered by Bitwig, Live, Studio One, Logic, etc. (where one needs only to specify MIDI and audio outputs + audio input and everything is automagically latency compensated) are available in MuLab.

The 'HW FX' device in Bitwig is just an audio router and a 'report latency' button. When you press the button, it reports latency in samples to the host.

Similarly, the MuLab 'Latency Generator' is used to "manually define a latency for hardware synth/fx that doesn't report its latency, and so it gets included in the APLC system. (Automatic Plugin Latency Compensation)" to quote the Mulab Docs.
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I have not had the need for it, but best to give it a try.

If you have hw that cannot report latency, try this to measures input + output together:
https://oblique-audio.com/rtl-utility.php