Which plugins add unwanted watermarks to audio?

[xNiMiNx]

i think this watermarking guff is a load of smoke and mirrors designed to scare....it doesnt exists

It certainly does exist in the land of music distribution, and people who listen to music with a wide dynamic range such as classical/orchestral music DO notice it and get very pissed off about it.

There is also the very real problem of the "slippery slope" and the sort of paranoia (and terrible sound quality) that could arise in the future where watermarking is everywhere in multiple layers and everybody is afraid to sample the slightest little sliver of sound

i was refering to VST synths, i should have made that clear...

Oh right. I'm kinda with you on that one. I don't see how they can have any kind of workable system with it to be honest. But you never know

Is it really impossible for a vst to have something like AWT# inside of it that would embed the watermark on the fly before it sends the audio to the daw/speakers? Again, i think the downside would be, the end user may introduce artifacts with specific combinations of options in the vst, but i guess as a user, we would just assume we created a poor preset?

EDIT: I see they even supply you a free Android Listening app, to detect watermarks. This thing sure seems amazing, id love to know how well it really works.

[Kriminal]

i think this watermarking guff is a load of smoke and mirrors designed to scare....it doesnt exists

It certainly does exist in the land of music distribution, and people who listen to music with a wide dynamic range such as classical/orchestral music DO notice it and get very pissed off about it.

There is also the very real problem of the "slippery slope" and the sort of paranoia (and terrible sound quality) that could arise in the future where watermarking is everywhere in multiple layers and everybody is afraid to sample the slightest little sliver of sound

i was refering to VST synths, i should have made that clear...

Oh right. I'm kinda with you on that one. I don't see how they can have any kind of workable system with it to be honest. But you never know

you two are clearly sock puppet pirates covering up for someone else who watermarks audio!
probably...
or something.

...and we would have got away with it too, if it wasnt for you addled muppets!!!!

[vurt]

[pdxindy]

As one company spokesperson said "Our comp ny takes great pride in our audio quality and we as ure you that the watermarking we have u ed for t e past seven years is inaudible and d es not degrade the sound qua ity or aff ct your re ults in any way"

[PietW.]

I have heard of that method a couple of times, but I am not sure which synths and other plugins do that. Seems that is not necessarily something developers like to mention. So let's mention it for them

I think it is absolutely ok if developers want to protect their software, but adding anything but the sound to the audio seems way too intrusive in my view. The protection should kick in at an earlier stage, i.e. regarding the download and installation of software, not the music I make with that software.

What kind of data do such watermarks include, who "reads" them and how?

I know there are plugins whose purpose it is to add musicians' own watermarks to songs in order to protect them, but that is a completely different story and not what this thread is about.

The more we learn of the NSA etc., the more allergic I become to tracking, spying, and all that secrecy and control crap...

Where is your problem?

[Sendy]

i think this watermarking guff is a load of smoke and mirrors designed to scare....it doesnt exists

It certainly does exist in the land of music distribution, and people who listen to music with a wide dynamic range such as classical/orchestral music DO notice it and get very pissed off about it.

There is also the very real problem of the "slippery slope" and the sort of paranoia (and terrible sound quality) that could arise in the future where watermarking is everywhere in multiple layers and everybody is afraid to sample the slightest little sliver of sound

i was refering to VST synths, i should have made that clear...

Oh right. I'm kinda with you on that one. I don't see how they can have any kind of workable system with it to be honest. But you never know

Is it really impossible for a vst to have something like AWT# inside of it that would embed the watermark on the fly before it sends the audio to the daw/speakers? Again, i think the downside would be, the end user may introduce artifacts with specific combinations of options in the vst, but i guess as a user, we would just assume we created a poor preset?

EDIT: I see they even supply you a free Android Listening app, to detect watermarks. This thing sure seems amazing, id love to know how well it really works.

Not impossible. I don't doubt that a VA synth could encode stuff semi-transparently on the fly as you bash on the keys, but this must be a fairly CPU-intensive operation - especially if the waveform it's encoding into isn't known ahead of time - and if people caught on they'd realize their CPU cycles were being used for quite an intensive process that doesn't benefit them - or could even get them in trouble, if for example, something goes wrong and they're accused of piracy.

It's not inconcievable that by chance some process you do on audio that you own generates a false positive in their reading algos. And are they really scanning the output from all EDM and IDM bedroom musicians to check for waveforms produced by unlicensed copies. (Just think about that for a minute... and pity whoever is landed with that job )... What does it even mean, when said track could have been a collaboration, or based on someone else's work that was sampled with permission from them, unbenknownst to the samplist that the waveform was generated with an unlicensed software.

Don't get me wrong, I like and use Tone2 software, and their stuff works really effeciently and without problems. Which is part of why I think this kind of encoding isn't going on on-the-fly as I compose my latest IDM belter

All I can say to "balance" that is this - buy the software you use, support innovation and small businesses, and do unto others as you'd have done unto you..

[Tricky-Loops]

And are they really scanning the output from all EDM and IDM bedroom musicians to check for waveforms produced by unlicensed copies. (Just think about that for a minute... and pity whoever is landed with that job )

Finally a great idea for suggesting them a new job opportunity!

[xNiMiNx]

Not impossible. I don't doubt that a VA synth could encode stuff semi-transparently on the fly as you bash on the keys, but this must be a fairly CPU-intensive operation

Yes, i agree it would definately add to resources, i was just more asking since a few posts in this thread make it seem impossible. The demo version of that software is 15mb (win), and ive seen some vsts as small as 200kb, and ive seen vsts that were way over 15mb, so the idea that there is a small vst, with a large watermarking app built in, doesnt seem impossible to me.

Don't get me wrong, I like and use Tone2 software, and their stuff works really effeciently and without problems. Which is part of why I think this kind of encoding isn't going on on-the-fly as I compose my latest IDM belter

Just to be clear, my post that you responded to, and every other post in this thread has nothing to do with the T word (i dont want to offend any people in this thread, just the mention of that word seems to cause stress and alarm).

All I can say to "balance" that is this - buy the software you use, support innovation and small businesses, and do unto others as you'd have done unto you..

Agreed. Without support, there wont be a next version.

[codec_spurt]

Remember when Microsoft got busted when one of its developers used a cracked copy of Sound Forge 4.5 to build the Windows 95 OS?

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/For ... eID=332699

The file is inbuilt to the OS so there is no dispute. If you open it in a Hex Editor, the info is there for all to see.

I always thought that this was 'watermarking' but I may be wrong. I don't see how you could contain the information needed within the ones and zeros, without some kind of specialist proprietary watermark reading software, kind of reverse steganography.

Then again, I'm not very bright, so who is to say this doesn't go on?

But how the chuff would you get something like that to work after, say, a second or third generation transfer? Render goes to disk> Is watermarked. Render gets mixed up with other renders> Still maintains intact watermark. Baffling.

And to bring up Krim's point, htf do you embed this kind of meta data in a wav file through the oscillators or whatever?

Then again, I don't even know what an oscillator is, so don't listen to me.


Just you know, kiddies, get a new crack of SF4.5 by anyone other than Radium, mmmkay...





Most Audio Editors or indeed most Audio Programs will embed specific identifying meta data into the file that can be read by a Hex Editor, and then by humans. But I dare say that some have specific meta data embeded that is still in 'code' and can be read by anyone with access to the 'code'. Say if you rendered out a sample in FXpansion Geist to wav, there is no reason why those unadulterated waveforms would not contain the meta data. How they survive transfer to .Mp3 is another matter.

I have wild curiosity in these matters, but I doubt somehow the big boys will be coming along to tell us how its done. Just know that they have zer ways.

[Frantz]

do unto others as you'd have done unto you

I just ran your post through a watermark detector and you appear to be using an unauthorized Bible sample. Church lawyers will be serving you a DMCA takedown notice shortly.

[chk071]

Just to be clear, my post that you responded to, and every other post in this thread has nothing to do with the T word (i dont want to offend any people in this thread, just the mention of that word seems to cause stress and alarm).

Why so defensive? No need to turn things around, this thread has been about Tone2 since the very first post. A shame, but that's the way it is.

[xNiMiNx]

Why so defensive? No need to turn things around, this thread has been about Tone2 since the very first post. A shame, but that's the way it is.

Defensive, because of the false accusations flying around. I dont want to be thrown into the river to see if i float.

In all honesty, the technology (watermarking) is amazing, and mind boggling imo. Able to retain over radio waves? My head hurts thinking about it.

I cant help but feel that if it becomes widespread (vst, sample libs, music ownership, internet radio, music distribution) eventually these inaudible things will be audible.

It also makes me wonder; obviously the sound of a sample lib or vst is personal preference, but how much of a percentage of that dispute is due to someones setup (computer, audio interface, speakers) not agreeing with some watermarking thats inside, making them feel it 'doesnt sound good', but for lack of knowledge, just blaming it on poor quality, while others, with different gear, think it sounds good? Im sure its a small percentage, but its something i never pondered.

[chk071]

Defensive, because of the false accusations flying around. I dont want to be thrown into the river to see if i float.

In all honesty, the technology (watermarking) is amazing, and mind boggling imo. Able to retain over radio waves? My head hurts thinking about it.

Fair enough, you really seem to be interested in it. It's just that i can't say that about 95 % of the other people floating this thread with their rage about "Big companies" and their methods. (The term "big" being pretty much a good laugh in this industry...)

[Tricky-Loops]

In this thread are more people who complain about trolls than trolls themselves...

[chk071]

In this thread are more people who complain about trolls than trolls themselves...

Maybe, but there's quite a few posts from those on pages 3 to 7...