interval quality question

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Sorry my friend . From my text " Dissonances include the 2nd, 7th and any augmented or diminished interval. " The Musicians Guide to Theory and Analysis, 3rd Edition

So you have a textbook written by a teacher who either cannot express himself or has not got it. When saying any aug or dim interval he may just mean those two spoken of today, namely the augmented fourth or dim fifth like Fux does. Don’t think his def can compete with the original source of counterpoint, nor the logic of the tempered halftone system. An augmented fourth is a fourth + a half resulting in tritonus . Not a fourth + 1/4 tone or less. So is a dimished 5th. Tritonus, and they are treated as such by Fux. Your logic fails the definitions of the 12 tone system, and so does the vague expression of your textbook.

[fmr]

Sorry my friend . From my text " Dissonances include the 2nd, 7th and any augmented or diminished interval. " The Musicians Guide to Theory and Analysis, 3rd Edition

You shouldn't trust these "modern" texts. Most of the time they are misinformed and misguiding ways of telling the same old story. Pointless and many times sources of confusion. Depending on what you are trying to learn, Fux "Gradus Ad Parnasum", for learning counterpoint and four voice style composition, or, if you are trying to learn pure harmony, the "Treaty of Harmony" from Rameau (for baroque harmony) or Shoenberg's "Harmony" for classic, romantic and modern harmony are much better sources.

[shugs]

Maybe if a graduate from 'baby' music theory I will broaden my horizon, but not just yet !! thanks for your insight

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

You shouldn't trust these "modern" texts. Most of the time they are misinformed and misguiding ways of telling the same old story.

The pattern persists within my research field in my daily work too: Textbook writers tend to copy each other, not the original sources, resulting in permanent errors and misunderstandings brought from one to another. What a pity.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Maybe if a graduate from 'baby' music theory I will broaden my horizon, but not just yet !! thanks for your insight

Being able to distinguish an imperfect consonance from perfect consonance and these from a dissonance is part of baby theory in counterpoint, I am afraid. Mix them up, and the rules falls apart accordingly.

[shugs]

well, I am going to stick by the book and the teacher for now. I have googled 'why is an augmented 2nd a dissonant interval" and there are lots of explanations for why this is so. I dont see anyone arguing it the other way

[fmr]

well, I am going to stick by the book and the teacher for now. I have googled 'why is an augmented 2nd a dissonant interval" and there are lots of explanations for why this is so. I don't see anyone arguing it the other way

Point is: A augmented second is an interval that implies an alteration of the base scale, therefore, as you are using notes extraneous to the original tonality, it has to be treated accordingly. Question is: Where does that interval appears, and how was it resolved?

That's where you should focus and, if you want, you may bring your music examples here to get some help. An augmented second, for example, appears melodically in the minor mode, and ion the baroque period composers usually avoided it (with some exceptions).

[shugs]

"Point is: A augmented second is an interval that implies an alteration of the base scale, therefore, as you are using notes extraneous to the original tonality, it has to be treated accordingly. Question is: Where does that interval appears, and how was it resolved?"

My point exactly. and in doing so, it is defined as 'dissonant'. It's just a definition that seems to be pretty universal as far as I can tell

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

well, I am going to stick by the book and the teacher for now. I have googled 'why is an augmented 2nd a dissonant interval" and there are lots of explanations for why this is so. I dont see anyone arguing it the other way

Really? Well in strict counterpoint, an augmented minor second is a dissonant major second, but an augmented major second cannot be anything else than a minor third according to the tempered system. Are you sure you understand what you read? You admit being new, but insist to make up your own rules for counterpoint then, despite my references to Fux, and despite the obvious clash of logic according to the 12 tone system, treating any augmention as dissonant. Let’s say you have made a move from a pure consonant, a fifth, to minor third in contrary motion. How would you know wether to treat this third as an imperfect consonant or a dissonance to be resolved according to strict counterpoint? By making up additional rules? If this third occupies tonic and third, it is consonant. If the third occupies the 5th and 7th together with a root, it will be dissonant because its highest note serves as a minor 7th from the root and not a minor third. However, that does not make the interval of a minor third dissonant in itself. It is the relation between root a highest note counting then, here a minor 7th.

[shugs]

At this point in my counterpoint education, I am told that I must stay in key with he exception of the closing in a minor key. SO everything you say may be correct, but I am not there yet, There are no accidentals allowed in what I am doing so far ( strict two part counterpoint), so no diminished or augmented intervals and no dissonances,

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Well, maybe I should return when augmented and diminished intervals and treatment of dissonances become practical relevant, then. There will likely be more ground for us to come to a shared understanding.

[shugs]

probably..I am wrapping up the chapter on first species and moving on to second species....I am however skeptical that I will ever be told an A2 is not a dissonant interval. This just seems to be a definition as far as I can see - which was your original question of where I get that information. (I justify the definition in my own mind that an A2 has grabbed a note that isn't in the key) .

I do appreciate your comments; I get some of them and others are over my head at this point

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I am however skeptical that I will ever be told an A2 is not a dissonant interval. This just seems to be a definition as far as I can see - which was your original question of where I get that information. (I justify the definition in my own mind that an A2 has grabbed a note that isn't in the key) .

I am baffled. You simply disbelief the definitons given by the father of strict counterpoint though you want to train exactly that? How about the wiki then? You have a greater trust in this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_second

In classical music from Western culture, an augmented second is an interval that, in equal temperament, is sonically equivalent to a minor third, spanning three semitones, and is created by widening a major second by a chromatic semitone.[1][3]

This is getting very wierd now. Please quote one of your sources, I am sure you misread it unless it is about pretempered scales.

[fmr]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_second

In classical music from Western culture, an augmented second is an interval that, in equal temperament, is sonically equivalent to a minor third, spanning three semitones, and is created by widening a major second by a chromatic semitone.[1][3]

This is getting very wierd now. Please quote one of your sources, I am sure you misread it unless it is about pretempered scales.

Beware, though, that an augmented second, as it appears for example in a harmonic minor scale, has not the same meaning as a minor third. Sonically they sound the same, but in musical context and musical semantics they are completely different. That's why you clearly "hear" the augmented second when you play the harmonic minor, and don't hear that interval as a minor third (at least that's how "I" hear it). I don't think Fux ever dealt with the harmonic minor.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

A minor third can have many harmonical functions depending on its relative distance to tonic in triads, but that does not change its nature considered as a dyad only. In three and four part writing, things get a little more complicated, but not much really. If root is the lowest note in a minor third, it is just a minor harmony. If its lowest note is the minor third, its upper note will constitute a tritonus with the tonic, if its lower note is the fifth in a triad, its upper note will constitute a minor seventh with the tonic. However, such harmonical combis of consonances and dissonances do not violate the dyadic principle, just how to extract the most significant intervals in triads. Thus an imperfect consonance like a minor third + another minor third does not equal a consonant triad but actually a dissonant one due to tritonus.